Genesis 22

[Starman3000m]

earlier, you said that god already knows what you're going to do though. Does he or doesn't he? If you get to choose, then god doesn't know what is going to happen, meaning that he isn't all knowing.

Yes - God knows what the ultimate decision that you make will be. Consider God to be like a "Super-Parent" who instructs a child not to do a specific thing because the consequences will be deadly. Yet God knows that the child will be rebellious, not want to listen and continue on into a dangerous situation. Hmmm... sounds like regular kids, eh?

If he knows the reasons, then not only you know them (your reasons).

That's the point. It's between you and God and nobody else when it comes to your eternity. God is always willing to have His arms open to accept you no matter what you've ever said or done in any disobedient way. It would be you that chooses to not respond to His call.

All you have to do is admit that you are not perfect (none of us are) be willing to confess that you have made some wrong choices in life and that you are willing to turn and accept His help in your life. The Gift of eternal life is made possible because of the Atonement that Yeshua already paid on your behalf. It's a done deal! However, you can't receive it unless you ask and that is the choice you can make. Do you want God to be in your life as He wishes to be in yours?

 

[Xaquin44]

Yes - God knows what the ultimate decision that you make will be.

ok so god does know and you have no choice. If it's predetermind (and it has to be if god already knows) then there is no choice, as you're just playing through the way it is already set up.

Do you get what I'm saying? If the outcome is known, the process is known, and neither are ever wrong then how do we have choice? Where are the decisions made if god knows (and has always known) what's going to happen?

Lets say for instance that you are going to go to heaven. Could you, right now, abandon god and there by prove him wrong? (not saying you will/are/have to/etc.)

edit: I'm not saying you have to do this, I'm asking if it is possible for you to do this.

Consider God to be like a "Super-Parent" who instructs a child not to do a specific thing because the consequences will be deadly. Yet God knows that the child will be rebellious, not want to listen and continue on into a dangerous situation. Hmmm... sounds like regular kids, eh?

Hey, my son acts up all the time, but I'd never be such a bad parent as to damn him to an eternity in hell.

 

[Starman3000m]

ok so god does know and you have no choice. If it's predetermind (and it has to be if god already knows) then there is no choice, as you're just playing through the way it is already set up.

Do you get what I'm saying? If the outcome is known, the process is known, and neither are ever wrong then how do we have choice? Where are the decisions made if god knows (and has always known) what's going to happen?

Lets say for instance that you are going to go to heaven. Could you, right now, abandon god and there by prove him wrong? (not saying you will/are/have to/etc.)

The only way a person can be going to heaven is if he/she has finally come to the conclusion that they can't live a perfect and obedient life to God, need a Saviour, and trust that God's Forgiveness and Plan of Salvation is attainable only through the Atoning Blood that His Son shed on behalf of anyone who accepts Him.

When one has received the spiritual (born-again) experience of personally knowing God, one would not trade it for the world. The Bible states that those who receive Him are "sealed with the Promise" of eternal life.

Hey, my son acts up all the time, but I'd never be such a bad parent as to damn him to an eternity in hell.

This world is already condemned because it fell under the influence of God's enemy, Satan, through the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

The Bible states that His Son did not come to condemn the world (it's already condemned) but that the world through Him might be saved.

If God was such a "bad parent" He would not have sacrificed His own Son in order to save you and your son.

 

[Xaquin44]

The only way a person can be going to heaven is if he/she has finally come to the conclusion that they can't live a perfect and obedient life to God, need a Saviour, and trust that God's Forgiveness and Plan of Salvation is attainable only through the Atoning Blood that His Son shed on behalf of anyone who accepts Him.

When one has received the spiritual (born-again) experience of personally knowing God, one would not trade it for the world. The Bible states that those who receive Him are "sealed with the Promise" of eternal life.

that isn't really what I asked. I know you wouldn't trade it for the world, I'm asking if you could. There is a big difference.

This world is already condemned because it fell under the influence of God's enemy, Satan, through the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

The Bible states that His Son did not come to condemn the world (it's already condemned) but that the world through Him might be saved.

If God was such a "bad parent" He would not have sacrificed His own Son in order to save you and your son.

First, punishing humanity for all time for the actions of the first two (the ones he actually created by the way) is stupid. I've been grounded before .... I would hope that my children and their children etc. etc. won't suffer too badly because of something I did ....

Actually, sacrificing his son proves that god is a terrible parent. Especially since he knows the future and could have easily seen the outcome.

edit: haha wow, god really is a bad parent lol

lets see here.

First Son: Adam. Married Eve (his sister) and was tempted by Satan (through the deeds of his sister). Got humanity kicked out of Paradise for eternity.

Daughter: Eve. Married Adam (her brother) and was tempted by Satan. Got humanity kicked out of Paradise for eternity.

Second Son: Jesus. Let get betrayed and crucified.

also as an aside, he knocked up the wife of a married man (which according to his own commandments you really shouldn't do).

 

[Starman3000m]

that isn't really what I asked. I know you wouldn't trade it for the world, I'm asking if you could. There is a big difference.



First, punishing humanity for all time for the actions of the first two (the ones he actually created by the way) is stupid. I've been grounded before .... I would hope that my children and their children etc. etc. won't suffer too badly because of something I did ....

Actually, sacrificing his son proves that god is a terrible parent. Especially since he knows the future and could have easily seen the outcome.

edit: haha wow, god really is a bad parent lol

lets see here.

First Son: Adam. Married Eve (his sister) and was tempted by Satan (through the deeds of his sister). Got humanity kicked out of Paradise for eternity.

Daughter: Eve. Married Adam (her brother) and was tempted by Satan. Got humanity kicked out of Paradise for eternity.

Second Son: Jesus. Let get betrayed and crucified.

also as an aside, he knocked up the wife of a married man (which according to his own commandments you really shouldn't do).

I'm sure you love your son, Xaquin, and want the best for him.
If the only way to get to heaven is by accepting God's Plan of Salvation and not by personal works, wouldn't you want your son to know how to receive eternal life?

 

[Xaquin44]

you are dodging the question.

but to answer yours, of course I'd want my son to go to heaven, but I'm not so foolish as to think anyone or anything in the world can tell him exactly how to get there. I'll give him the values I have and hope they stick.

Will that get him in? I don't know, but if I can teach him to be the best man he can be I'll know I did my best (and I'll know he did his best too).

 

[Starman3000m]

you are dodging the question.

but to answer yours, of course I'd want my son to go to heaven, but I'm not so foolish as to think anyone or anything in the world can tell him exactly how to get there. I'll give him the values I have and hope they stick.

Will that get him in? I don't know, but if I can teach him to be the best man he can be I'll know I did my best (and I'll know he did his best too).

You mean - you are giving your son Free-Will????

 

[Xaquin44]

You mean - you are giving your son Free-Will????

yeah .... see I'm trying to be a good parent. I would never hold eternal torment over my sons head.

you still didn't answer the question I posted to you above.

 

[Starman3000m]

yeah .... see I'm trying to be a good parent. I would never hold eternal torment over my sons head.

you still didn't answer the question I posted to you above.

I personally do not believe that a saved person would want to lose it by deciding to reject the eternal life that they had received.

Many people have outwardly appeared to be "Christians" but had never really made the honest commitment to give their life to God.

If someone wrote you a check for Ten-Million Dollars then made it available to you just for the asking would you change your mind after accepting it and then give it back?

 

[Xaquin44]

I personally do not believe that a saved person would want to lose it by deciding to reject the eternal life that they had received.

Many people have outwardly appeared to be "Christians" but had never really made the honest commitment to give their life to God.

If someone wrote you a check for Ten-Million Dollars then made it available to you just for the asking would change your mind after accepting it and then give it back?

You still aren't answering the question. This isn't a 'would you' question, it's a 'could you' question.

I'll repost it for you.

"Lets say for instance that you are going to go to heaven. Could you, right now, abandon god and there by prove him wrong?"

edit: and no, I wouldn't give the check back unless it had some ugly strings attached.

 

[Starman3000m]

You still aren't answering the question. This isn't a 'would you' question, it's a 'could you' question.

I'll repost it for you.

"Lets say for instance that you are going to go to heaven. Could you, right now, abandon god and there by prove him wrong?"

No - because God would already know that my original decision to accept Yeshua as my Lord and Saviour was not a sincere one.

You can't fool God.

 

[Xaquin44]

so then there is no free will is there?

If it's already determined and can't be changed, then where is the 'free' part?

 

[Starman3000m]

so then there is no free will is there?

If it's already determined and can't be changed, then where is the 'free' part?

You are leaving Satan out of the equation here.

God wants you to go to heaven and has provided a way for you to receive Eternal Life.

Satan wants to keep your soul captive and under his control.

Which do you choose to follow?

 

[Xaquin44]

You are leaving Satan out of the equation here.

God wants you to go to heaven and has provided a way for you to receive Eternal Life.

Satan wants to keep your soul captive and under his control.

Which do you choose to follow?

what does that matter, if god already knows?

satan is a non issue (why god created him I don't know) (also why god allows him to remain I don't know either). Since god knoweth all or whatever, he'll know if a person is to be tempted or not.

 

[Starman3000m]

what does that matter, if god already knows?

satan is a non issue (why god created him I don't know) (also why god allows him to remain I don't know either). Since god knoweth all or whatever, he'll know if a person is to be tempted or not.

God could have created mankind to love and obey Him from the start. The fact that we have free will means that those who choose to trust God are doing so because they want to not because they have to. That proves true love and friendship that can be established with God.

It becomes a personal decision.

Satan's days are numbered but meanwhile he is still doing everything he can to prevent people from believing and accepting God's Plan of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Christ.

Need to sign of soon.

 

[PsyOps]

"Lets say for instance that you are going to go to heaven. Could you, right now, abandon god and there by prove him wrong?"

This is a moot question because 1) the first part is impossible and 2) the criteria for getting into heaven is faith in God, not abandonment of God.

 

[Xaquin44]

This is a moot question because 1) the first part is impossible and 2) the criteria for getting into heaven is faith in God, not abandonment of God.

number one isn't impossible .... heck, I've been accused of it numerous times on this forum alone lol

and number two, well, that was my point really.

 

[PsyOps]

number one isn't impossible .... heck, I've been accused of it numerous times on this forum alone lol

and number two, well, that was my point really.

You've been accused several times of knowing that you are going to heaven? Are you sure?

What is really your point?

 

[libby]

You still aren't answering the question. This isn't a 'would you' question, it's a 'could you' question.

I'll repost it for you.

"Lets say for instance that you are going to go to heaven. Could you, right now, abandon god and there by prove him wrong?"

edit: and no, I wouldn't give the check back unless it had some ugly strings attached.

Part of me would like to jump in on this thread, but I haven't read the whole thing. Are you asking if a saved person could abandon God and then still get to Heaven?

 

[Xaquin44]

You've been accused several times of knowing that you are going to heaven? Are you sure?

What is really your point?

no, I've been accused of abandoning god .... like you quoted and said was impossible.

wait .... looking back, there are three parts to my sentences. Which were you talking about?

nevermind

I gotcha

lets start over lol


I'm right.