Hypocrisy

[Christy]

Ken,  I believe the Supreme Court needs to decide that once a child can live outside the womb, it should be afforded the rights as any other living human being.  If a problem arises during pregnancy and the fetus can survive outside the womb, it should be considered murder to abort it.  Remove it and stick it on life support.  If the parents are so callous as not to want the child due to possible disabilities, the child should become a ward of the state.  That is one thing (and there aren't many) that I'd not mind my tax dollars going to pay for.  

I used to buy into the belief that I'd rather a child be aborted rather than grow up in a sh*t
ty household, but I've since changed that stance.  I've met lots of people who've grown up in deplorable conditions and have become amazing human beings, who have made huge contributions to society.  Who are we to deny someone's right to live?  I know alot of people on here will ask (depending on how much they pay attention), why I believe in the death penalty and not abortion.....  My answer to that is, that those given the death penalty have proven to be evil and nasty.  Those unborn, have yet to have a chance to prove themselves and their contribution to society.

Give a friggin kid a chance!

 

[Sharon]

Christy on 9:57 pm on April 21, 2002[br]I know alot of people on here will ask (depending on how much they pay attention), why I believe in the death penalty and not abortion.....  My answer to that is, that those given the death penalty have proven to be evil and nasty.

You are correct and I totally agree with you.  Others will be pro-abortion and anti-death penalty but that makes no sense to me.  See what the Bible says about the death penalty...
http://www.bible.com/answers/acapital.html

(...and for the anti-christian, unholy Bible belly-achers, don't bother with the link.  I simply posted it for the few who are interested. )
 

 

[BudoPo]

Christy on 9:57 pm on April 21, 2002[br]I know alot of people on here will ask (depending on how much they pay attention), why I believe in the death penalty and not abortion.....  My answer to that is, that those given the death penalty have proven to be evil and nasty.

Really, my only problem with the death penalty is when an innocent person is convicted.  Case in point is Illinois, which recently put a moratorium on executions due to their finding of 12 cases in which the convicted were found to be innocent.

Sharon on 9:37 am on April 22, 2002[br](...and for the anti-christian, unholy Bible belly-achers, don't bother with the link.  I simply posted it for the few who are interested. )  

Sharon, could you please explain "anti-Christian, unholy Bible belly-achers"?  I think I kind of know what you mean, but I'm not sure.

Is it me, or is this thread starting to split off into a few new ones?

 

[vraiblonde]

This is a great topic and I love how it's evolved to discuss those issues near and dear to us.

Abortion is disgusting.  Flat out.  If you've ever seen one being performed and the little fetus being tossed out like trash, you'd cry your eyes out.  It's a hard-hearted woman who would do that to her unborn baby.  Not to mention the doctor.  Or the sadistic nut who came up with the procedure for partial-birth abortion.  Yikes.  A better solution, in my opinion, would be for women to take more responsibility for their reproductive practices.  Until that happens, though, abortion is one of those ugly things that keep the world from being overrun with unwanted children who grow up to be burdens on society.  Not all of them, certainly, but enough that I'm still mostly pro-choice, even though I think abortion is disgusting and cruel.  Think about a woman who would let some doctor cut up her baby and dispose of it.  Now imagine her raising kids.  Scary, huh?

Life, in fact, begins at conception.  Anyone who says different is just being ignorant or trying to justify their abortion beliefs.  It is certainly living tissue, with developing organs and brain matter - a potential human being.  But that's neither here nor there.  The <i>honest</i> debate would be whether a woman has the right to rid herself of an inconvenient child, prior to actual birth.  Pro-choicers don't like to call a spade a spade because it hurts their cause.  Makes people think about real babies instead of blood blobs.

Jimmy sez

I think that richer people should be paying high taxes cause no one needs that much money

Spoken like a true Socialist!    You bust on Gates but think about it - how many people does he employ?  How many job opportunities has he created?  Not to mention all the money he gives away to philanthropic endeavors.  So which would be better - for Gates to get rich and make other people rich in the process?  Or to take away the incentive for him to do what he does, then nobody gets <i>anything</i>?  Should the Bill Gateses of the world have to support everyone else?  You might take a look at Communist nations to see exactly what the outcome of that type of thinking leads to.

 

[Ken King]

Christy on 9:57 pm on April 21, 2002[br]Ken,  I believe the Supreme Court needs to decide that once a child can live outside the womb, it should be afforded the rights as any other living human being.  

That sounds like creating legislation which should be done by the Congress.  Roe v. Wade mentioned the states right concerning protecting the "unborn" and how at a certain point the rights of the "unborn" are equal to the rights of the mothers.  Now, should each state decide when that is or should it be a national question?

 

[Ken King]

Okay Vraiblonde,

I am going to go in another direction on this and ask, if life begins at conception, and conception occurs in a test tube, would the additional embryos implanted in the woman that die be murder?  Or are they just insignificant losses?

 

[missi1013]

Ok Ken,

Now a person on live support is being kept alive by a michine.  You take that person off and they die.  Yes, but a child inside of you is not being kept alive by a michine, it's a person.  And if that person didn't want a baby she shouldn't of opened her legs or used protection.  Now of course in a rape issue, she should have the baby and give it up, if she wants to.  See That's the issue too, is that men are making the laws and how do they know how women feel about having a baby.  If men could have babies and know the bonding between you and the child and feeling it move inside you, then maybe you would see!!!  And if a women doesn't feel that way and wants to give uo her child, then she very heartless.  And yes doesn't desirve to be a mother, but she should have it and give it up for a mother who can't have kids and deserves it!!

Now as for "test tube babies" and if the egg dies.  That is not murder.  The mother did not kill that egg in any way.  It is having a misscarige. And the mother has NO control over that.

 

[Sharon]

BudoPo,

Sharon on 9:37 am on April 22, 2002[br]
Sharon, could you please explain "anti-Christian, unholy Bible belly-achers"?

No!

 I think I kind of know what you mean...

I think you do too!
-------------------

Life, in fact, begins at conception.  Anyone who says different is just being ignorant or trying to justify their abortion beliefs.  Abortion is disgusting.

 Well said V!  But people will always argue on that word "potential" to become a baby.
-------------------

From what I've heard, most of the women who had their "choice" regretted their decision and would never do it again.

Conception, in my understanding doesn't begin in a test tube, fertilization does.  If you leave the fertilized egg in the test tube, what does it become?  Nothing! ...until it is implanted into the woman.

 

[vraiblonde]

Reply to Ken:

I don't believe I ever said that abortion was murder, so whether tossing the test tube is murder or not has nothing to do with my opinion.  Make no mistake, though, that the fetuses in the test tube are living, potential humans.  If it is decided at some point that we are going to have reverence for human life, THEN we will have to address the test tube issue.  Until then it is merely an inconvenience that we can destroy at will, much like a fetus in the womb.  I, personally, don't agree with this take but I don't get to make the rules.

I'm not a fan of test tube conception anyway - the whole idea is so unnatural and Orwellian that it gives me the creeps.  But like Missi said, if the embryo is implanted in the woman and she miscarries, that's not the same thing as willfully aborting your baby.  What's a more interesting scenario is if the woman is implanted, several embryos take hold, and then she has to decide which one(s) to abort.  Like most technology, artificial conception creates more problems than it solves.

 

[Ken King]

Missi,

That person being kept “alive” by machine has the “potential” of life just as an embryo or fetus does.   So how can you have a differing standard for the two?  And once an “egg” is fertilized and becomes an embryo, isn’t it entitled to the protections you seek for all life, regardless if it was conceived naturally or by an artificial means?  You say a mother has no control over a miscarriage, sometimes that might be true but there are other instances due to lifestyle and activities that can influence a resulting miscarriage, but I guess that would be okay for you too and that mother isn’t responsible for her actions.  How can you have it both ways if that life deserves protection?  

As to cases of rape and incest I think it ludicrous to force a woman to carry the resulting abomination to full term, she should have the option to stop it before those emotional bonds you mentioned make it a really difficult decision.

Sharon,

You said, “Conception, in my understanding doesn't begin in a test tube, fertilization does. If you leave the fertilized egg in the test tube, what does it become? Nothing! ...until it is implanted into the woman.”   Conception and fertilization are the same regardless of the medium in which it occurred, at least for me, as it was a growing human once the cells started splitting.  If not implanted doesn’t it or couldn’t it become stem cells, which is a little more then nothing (at least in the scientific and medical communities),  also couldn't a method of taking a life to full term outside the womb be devised in the future.  With all the cloning going on it seems if that is a goal of some, especially the French.

Vraiblonde,

You might not have said murder, but isn’t the intentional taking of an innocent life just that, regardless of the label anyone puts on it?  

Maybe it is because there are so many difficult issues with this topic that it has not been able to be effectively resolved to a point everyone can live with.

I too see artificial means of conception as a problem creator, but society has said it is okay even though they apparently kill as many, if not more, potential lives then they bring about.

If life begins at conception, which is what you all seem to be saying, how can one differentiate between which ones live and which ones die?  Don't they all deserve equal protection?  Which can cause even more problems, at least in my mind.

 

[Sharon]

I believe you have a point there about the stem cells.  Another can of worms, IMO.

 

[missi1013]

Ken,

We agreed on the circus, lets see if we can come to an agreement on this.  A person on  life support does not have the "potential" to live if we are talking about what you first said about with no brain waves.  Once there are no brain waves, that's it.  There is no hope that person is dead. An unborn baby has brain waves. That's the difference.  An unborn baby can feel pain and cry just like a born person.

Now with "do not resus." that is the persons wish, an unborn baby can not make that wish.

If the mother miscarrige's because of "live style", then yes that is to murder.  To me that is the same thing as abortion.  And the mother is responsible for that.  But natural cause misscarrige is not.

Innocent lives should be protected.  The ones that didn't asked to be killed.  The ones that have heart beats and brain waves.  And the mother is fully responsible for killing her child, weather it is abortion or "live style" misscarrige! It dosen't matter!  Killing is killing!  

 

[Ken King]

Missi,

The point I was making, that seemed to rocket over your head, was that with the advances in medicine and technology the potential to restore function in the brain of a comatose person might not be that far off.  Currently we allow family members the right to disconnect the assisting apparatus resulting in death.  Should that be so?  I don’t know, but I see a parallel between that topic and the current one we are talking about and believe that if new life is to be protected shouldn’t the old life receive equal protections based on the “potential”.  

You say that “do not resuscitate” instructions are that person’s wish, well we stop suicide and make it a crime and that obviously is the person’s wish as well.   Why is one okay and the other not?

So we do agree that lifestyle resulting in a miscarriage is murder.  Hmm, now should we have all women who find themselves pregnant registered so that we can assure that the unborn is protected?  Should doctors be required to report miscarriages to the authorities so that they can be investigated to determine what caused the loss of the “potential” life?  Or are some losses just acceptable and who gets to decide that one form of termination is right and another is wrong?

 

[missi1013]

Ok, if technology can bring back a person's brain waves then I might requestion my view.  But there is no kind of tech. that when a person aborts a child that the child can still live.

The do not resus. issue.  I think if the person ask's not to be resus. then that is his/her choice on there own life.  Now I don't think a person should have that control over someone else's life, that can't even defend themselves. That's all I'm trying to say on that issue.

I think if you have a "life style" misscarriage that there should be a punishment, I don't know if I would go as far as jail, but rehab would be right.

I think that yes "old" life should be protected as well, but untill that tech. comes out, we have to deal with what's on the plate now.

 

[BL]

You can talk about abortion all day if you wanted to.  The fact is, there is a lot of people who can’t even have kids and would do anything to have one.  I say if you don’t want a kid, don’t kill it, give it up for adoption.  Most people that are willing to adopt will probably pay for all of the medical expenses too.  There are probably circumstances that might require an abortion but don’t use it for birth control.

 

[jimmy]

Yeah Vicos, you pretty much nailed me. When I came to this country, I was 4 years old. My father was a mexican machinist and my mother was a prostitute.  When my father wasn't beating me with his shoe, he was putting out lit cigarettes on my eyeballs.  One day, we climbed across the border gate to get into your country to take advatage of hard-working americans like you.  My mother spread std's to your businessmen and my father got a steady job as a crack dealer.  I hated growing up that way because all the kids in school would make fun of me and punch me because the only clothes my parents could afford were one of those fake tuxedo t-shirts, a pair zubaz, bunny slippers and a "Hulk Rules" headband. Oh, life was rough for a poor immigrant. But, luckily, I was able to lie on my high school transcrips, get into college due to affirmative action and lie on my resume to land a tax payer-funded government job where I periodically leave to smoke weed and drink tequilla. In fact, I'm pretty housed right now!
I hate anyone who didn't grow up this way and who thinks different from me because it endangers my lazy, self-absorbed way of life.  I'm sorry you exposed my little secret but at least now I don't have to keep pretending...thank you, Vicos...

 

[BL]

Jimmy,

And this clown Vicos called me a bulletin board bully.  What a joke.

 

[jimmy]

Yeah well some people just can't see irony in their own lives...he seeks us out for supposedly bullying people by posting this type of stuff?  Funny, eh?....

 

[EL1]

Jimmy-

Funny stuff!

 

[Heretic]

Liberal Example

Pro-Choice Keep your laws off my body, its my body its my choice yet most of the die hard pro choice people are against beauty pagents. Personally I think pagents are stupid as hell but its their body and their choice if they want to flaunt it like a piece of meat, I mean when your IQ is that low what else is there to do.


Im actually a registered democrat but I think my party has failed me because they care more about special interest groups than the average hard working Joe. Where is a hardworking, straight, white guy that believes he should keep most of his pay check since he is the one that works 70+ hours a week to do.

My father a live long democrat is also feeling left out by his political party. I wish moderate Republicans and conservative democrats would split into their own party to become a viable choice (that has a chance). Its the fanatics on either end of the spectrum that cause all of the trouble so lets get rid of them.