Well, Heretic, it's fun to have the fanatics because then at least we know which ideas are stupid and need to be tuned out...and I'm all for party reform, don't get me wrong. And I think beauty pagents are stupid and harmful and weird for children but I'm not trying to get a law passed against them.
Hypocrisy
- Thread starter Christy
- Start date
Jimmy,
Help me understand.
If your pops was a dealer and your mom was a prostitute to businessman, then why did you have to lie to get into college?
There seems to me that there would be other choices:
1. Take the drug money and buy a diploma from Havard U.
2. Have mom 'talk' to the admin people
3. Have dad 'talk' to the admin people
4. Have dad make a 'business relationship' with professors.
Seems to me there were better choices, unless of course you are Chief Few.
Help me understand.
If your pops was a dealer and your mom was a prostitute to businessman, then why did you have to lie to get into college?
There seems to me that there would be other choices:
1. Take the drug money and buy a diploma from Havard U.
2. Have mom 'talk' to the admin people
3. Have dad 'talk' to the admin people
4. Have dad make a 'business relationship' with professors.
Seems to me there were better choices, unless of course you are Chief Few.
Well, James,
When I lied to get into college, I was able to take advantage of tax-payer paid state scholarships. Any excuse I can get to take advantage of hard working, white americans is all I need!! And Dad and Mom were both serving mandatory minimum sentences at the time I went to college so they were really in no position to get me into any schools...
When I lied to get into college, I was able to take advantage of tax-payer paid state scholarships. Any excuse I can get to take advantage of hard working, white americans is all I need!! And Dad and Mom were both serving mandatory minimum sentences at the time I went to college so they were really in no position to get me into any schools...
H
Heretic
Guest
Hmmmm my body my choice. If there was a group of people that wanted their arms, legs tongue removed and their eyesight taken away as well as their hearing would the far left support their decisions?
Heretic,
Frankly I don't care if someone wants to chop of their head and have it surgically implanted in their ass and then be hung by their taint in a attic full of vampire bats. It doesn't affect me. How does it affect you? Why would someone's decisions about their own body be any of your business? If I want to remove my arms and sew them to my hips, so what? What's the difference between my right to do that and my right to piercings and tatoos?
Frankly I don't care if someone wants to chop of their head and have it surgically implanted in their ass and then be hung by their taint in a attic full of vampire bats. It doesn't affect me. How does it affect you? Why would someone's decisions about their own body be any of your business? If I want to remove my arms and sew them to my hips, so what? What's the difference between my right to do that and my right to piercings and tatoos?
H
Heretic
Guest
Well I’m sure the government would end up paying for the operation or the life long care in the end.
Piercing and tattoos don’t make you any kind of burden on society either.
I can see it now, the artificially paraplegic rights bill requires all workplaces to accommodate them. Don't get me started on affirmative action. In the Cuba topic you said you wanted to get rid of things that don't work how about affirmative action.
Piercing and tattoos don’t make you any kind of burden on society either.
I can see it now, the artificially paraplegic rights bill requires all workplaces to accommodate them. Don't get me started on affirmative action. In the Cuba topic you said you wanted to get rid of things that don't work how about affirmative action.
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Sure, let's look at some changes there. I'm all for it. I don't think it's an ALL bad system but certainly conterproductive in many ways in it's current incarnation.
And if you MAKE yourself into a burden on society than you screwed yourself. I DON'T think that society would bend over backwards for "self inflicted" handicaps....
They can DO it, or do whatever they want to their bodies, but I'm not suggesting we help em do it before or afterwards. That's stupid.
And if you MAKE yourself into a burden on society than you screwed yourself. I DON'T think that society would bend over backwards for "self inflicted" handicaps....
They can DO it, or do whatever they want to their bodies, but I'm not suggesting we help em do it before or afterwards. That's stupid.
Cool! So can we say now you wouldn't want to support Drug Rehab on the taxpayers dime? What about the Alky's?
Someone injuring themselves Rock Climing, Skydiving or Bungee Jumping? Or any sporting event for that matter?
After all it was their choice what they did with their bodies!
Personally I'd say to any of them that they made their choices so live with them or pay to fix the problem themselves but that isn't the position of your favorite political party!
If your starting to see the light... On the Right...Welcome!!!
For some reason, I don't think that those are quite the same idea. (I know that you were just being sarcastic) Honestly though, I have a problem with my taxes going to help someone out that made some poor life choices. No one made the junkie smoke that first joint, or snort that first line. Why should I pay to get them to stop? Especially considering that even after they became "clean" again, the chances of them returning their previous life are pretty high. How many times do we clean them up?
I wouldn't go that far, Kyle,
But I do have some more central/conservative feelings about things than do many hard-liberals.
As to your examples, if you wanna talk about injuries during "extreme sports" or whatever else stupid people can hurt themselves doing, as it stands now, if they have health care they'll get treatment. Not my dollar. If they DON'T have health care, well, they may be getting tax-payer money for treatment, that's true.
I, for one, am greatly in favor of health care reform (having hospitals and doctors offices go back to being "CARE GIVERS" not just another freaking business venture)...so this is kinda a weird argument to get into. No, I dont' think that people's stupidity should be a burden on tax payers but, on the other hand, it IS one of the original intentions of the US government to save us from our own stupidity (see: electoral college).
Until the system changes, I'm not that bent out of shape for having tax dollars go to help people that, while engaging in risky behavior, encountered an ACCIDENT. However, a self-mutilated amputee (of which there have to be a grand total of about 45 in the whole country) would not fall into the "accident" category in my book.
And if you start just forgetting about everyone that would be a 'Burden" on taxpayers based on risque behavior, (your 'live and let live' approach) guess what? You think crime rates are high NOW? Try ignoring those that can't afford health care or are battling "self-imposed" addiction, on the grounds that you don't want your hard earned money going to help them to recover...which brings me to:
Drugs....oh, the drug war...what a waste of money that's been.
Would I support treatment centers? Yes. Sure people are doing it to themselves but, if they want help and to become productive members of society, I think it's worth about 8 cents a paycheck from me to go towards that end.
However, I think drugs should be legalized, or at least decriminalized. Mandatory minimums for pot smokers etc are crowding our jails and clogging our penal system. And the threat does nothing to deter use.
People are gonna use. Why not make it legal, tax it, and use that money to fund the treatment centers and use the left overs to build roads or community centers or to establish educational programs etc...Do the same with prostitution while you're at it.
So, no, I dont' think I've starting leaning TOO far to the right. Unlike some liberals, I don't really have this bleeding heart for every idiot in the country trying to save them from themselves. But I know a practical solution when I see one and the idea of legalization and health care reform (both CERTAINLY more pillars of a liberal rather than conservative agenda) are great ideas in my book.
But I do have some more central/conservative feelings about things than do many hard-liberals.
As to your examples, if you wanna talk about injuries during "extreme sports" or whatever else stupid people can hurt themselves doing, as it stands now, if they have health care they'll get treatment. Not my dollar. If they DON'T have health care, well, they may be getting tax-payer money for treatment, that's true.
I, for one, am greatly in favor of health care reform (having hospitals and doctors offices go back to being "CARE GIVERS" not just another freaking business venture)...so this is kinda a weird argument to get into. No, I dont' think that people's stupidity should be a burden on tax payers but, on the other hand, it IS one of the original intentions of the US government to save us from our own stupidity (see: electoral college).
Until the system changes, I'm not that bent out of shape for having tax dollars go to help people that, while engaging in risky behavior, encountered an ACCIDENT. However, a self-mutilated amputee (of which there have to be a grand total of about 45 in the whole country) would not fall into the "accident" category in my book.
And if you start just forgetting about everyone that would be a 'Burden" on taxpayers based on risque behavior, (your 'live and let live' approach) guess what? You think crime rates are high NOW? Try ignoring those that can't afford health care or are battling "self-imposed" addiction, on the grounds that you don't want your hard earned money going to help them to recover...which brings me to:
Drugs....oh, the drug war...what a waste of money that's been.
Would I support treatment centers? Yes. Sure people are doing it to themselves but, if they want help and to become productive members of society, I think it's worth about 8 cents a paycheck from me to go towards that end.
However, I think drugs should be legalized, or at least decriminalized. Mandatory minimums for pot smokers etc are crowding our jails and clogging our penal system. And the threat does nothing to deter use.
People are gonna use. Why not make it legal, tax it, and use that money to fund the treatment centers and use the left overs to build roads or community centers or to establish educational programs etc...Do the same with prostitution while you're at it.
So, no, I dont' think I've starting leaning TOO far to the right. Unlike some liberals, I don't really have this bleeding heart for every idiot in the country trying to save them from themselves. But I know a practical solution when I see one and the idea of legalization and health care reform (both CERTAINLY more pillars of a liberal rather than conservative agenda) are great ideas in my book.
I might agree with the decriminalization of Drugs were we to take a no-nonsense approach to it.
By that I mean...If they want to come clean they get 1 chance, not 2 or 3, or 5, to clean up. After that if we find them face down in a gutter they are left there. If they OD we don't waste hundreds of thousands of $$ trying to save their worthless lives, ((lives "they" made worthless) before that argument starts), they get rolled into the dumpster!
I think we might actually work this out!
But I doubt it!
Well the worry I'd have is that if you just leave people like that to their own devices, you end up hurting society MORE than the cost incurred attempting to get them back on the right track.
Just leave them wandering the streets? How long before they are robbing, attacking, murdering, raping, etc. when they feel that the system has forgotten about them?
That's one of the biggest problems, for example, in the inner city is that they feel like no one gives a damn. That's why the treatments don't work because they get clean and then go out into a society that wants nothing to do with them. So what incentive to they have to better themselves?
I see the costs of reforming the system and providing alternatives as a greater, long-run, solution to the problems rather than letting thousands of people feel like they've got no alternatives in life. I think that would have quite dangerous, if unintended, long-term consequences.
Just leave them wandering the streets? How long before they are robbing, attacking, murdering, raping, etc. when they feel that the system has forgotten about them?
That's one of the biggest problems, for example, in the inner city is that they feel like no one gives a damn. That's why the treatments don't work because they get clean and then go out into a society that wants nothing to do with them. So what incentive to they have to better themselves?
I see the costs of reforming the system and providing alternatives as a greater, long-run, solution to the problems rather than letting thousands of people feel like they've got no alternatives in life. I think that would have quite dangerous, if unintended, long-term consequences.
Well…Seems to me “robbing, attacking, murdering, raping” etc. are all criminal activities which will land them back in the prisons you want to release them from for doing drugs.
If they choose to prey on society they’ll pay the price.
Secondly. Society is now required to have concern for every junkie, alky or deadbeat that walks the streets?
Do you have some idea that society owes them concern?
The world doesn’t know from Joe Schmo to John Doe and they aren’t required to give a damn.
Before we go down this “inner city” nonsense…I grew up in and just outside of DC. I had the same access to schools etc. as any other resident. Drugs were not an issue with many who lived in these same places. They made worthwhile use of the opportunity around them.
If some don’t take advantage of the few opportunities that life presents that’s their loss. Are we now obligated to continually show them, make them pick, the correct choices over their entire lives?
If they choose to prey on society they’ll pay the price.
Secondly. Society is now required to have concern for every junkie, alky or deadbeat that walks the streets?
Do you have some idea that society owes them concern?
The world doesn’t know from Joe Schmo to John Doe and they aren’t required to give a damn.
Before we go down this “inner city” nonsense…I grew up in and just outside of DC. I had the same access to schools etc. as any other resident. Drugs were not an issue with many who lived in these same places. They made worthwhile use of the opportunity around them.
If some don’t take advantage of the few opportunities that life presents that’s their loss. Are we now obligated to continually show them, make them pick, the correct choices over their entire lives?
Yes robbing raping, murdering etc. are all illegal activites. But it's a cycle that people get into and it often begins with drugs. If you're saying that some people are just going to choose unproductive ways of life, I'd say you're right. But if you're gonna tell me that, because of that, we shouldn't invest time and money into programs that attempt to remedy that situation, I'd disagree.
Many of these "choices" you speak of aren't really choices at all. Many of these people don't REALLY have a choice in the way that you or I had choices growing up. Sure, I know people that have grown up in the city and made something of themselves. But there are a disproportionate amount of people that don't.
Is it frustrating for us to look at and to be told that we SHOULD or HAVE to care? Sure. But is it fair for us (I'm assuming, by the way, that you are white) to look at that situation in the inner city and just ask "why arent' they doing something about it? No.
You/we can't imagine how neglected and detached people in the inner city feel. And how that turns into anger against society in some cases, and self-destructive behavior in others. Why is there such a drug problem in the inner city? What better way for them to make money! You have the ulitimate in capitolism right there. Now, take away that incentive by making drugs legal and what do you have?
You have a group of people that are gonna need to find something else to do to make their money. Why go shoot somebody for some money to buy smack if you can get it legally and cheaper than now? The drug trade is a billion dollar industry that goes untaxed every year. You wanna talk about having less of your tax money go to treatment centers, how about taxing the very drugs that these centers treat?
As for you comments about "why do we HAVE to care" I can't help you there. It is very common in this country to have that attitude and I probably won't be able to change your mind. I can't give you a reason why you HAVE to care about others, except for the fact that you most likely expect others to care about you.
Yes, I can hear you now "I don't need that kinda help and if I get in that kinda situation and I did it to myself, then TS for me!". That's all well and good. But you're NOT in that situation. And without people caring about the "common good" (whatever that can be determined to be) why the hell even get out of bed in the morning?
If your sole purpose on this earth is just to do whatever is good for you and screw everyone else, then I'd say it's people like THAT who are counterproductive to society....because, as is inherint in the name SOCIETY is a SOCIAL organism. People are, by most accounts, inherintly social animals. So working towards the common good would seem to be about the ONLY point to life from where I sit.
But, again, I probably can't change your mind and you obviously feel very strongly about you position on this. And I can understand how you feel that way. Like I said, I get it. I get why you would feel no real responsibility to other people in society. I get why you're offended by people who seem to be leeching off of society. And a good friend of mine once told me that you'll always lose an arguement if you can see both sides and the other person can't....so I guess you can go ahead and chalk one up in the win column for yourself.
Many of these "choices" you speak of aren't really choices at all. Many of these people don't REALLY have a choice in the way that you or I had choices growing up. Sure, I know people that have grown up in the city and made something of themselves. But there are a disproportionate amount of people that don't.
Is it frustrating for us to look at and to be told that we SHOULD or HAVE to care? Sure. But is it fair for us (I'm assuming, by the way, that you are white) to look at that situation in the inner city and just ask "why arent' they doing something about it? No.
You/we can't imagine how neglected and detached people in the inner city feel. And how that turns into anger against society in some cases, and self-destructive behavior in others. Why is there such a drug problem in the inner city? What better way for them to make money! You have the ulitimate in capitolism right there. Now, take away that incentive by making drugs legal and what do you have?
You have a group of people that are gonna need to find something else to do to make their money. Why go shoot somebody for some money to buy smack if you can get it legally and cheaper than now? The drug trade is a billion dollar industry that goes untaxed every year. You wanna talk about having less of your tax money go to treatment centers, how about taxing the very drugs that these centers treat?
As for you comments about "why do we HAVE to care" I can't help you there. It is very common in this country to have that attitude and I probably won't be able to change your mind. I can't give you a reason why you HAVE to care about others, except for the fact that you most likely expect others to care about you.
Yes, I can hear you now "I don't need that kinda help and if I get in that kinda situation and I did it to myself, then TS for me!". That's all well and good. But you're NOT in that situation. And without people caring about the "common good" (whatever that can be determined to be) why the hell even get out of bed in the morning?
If your sole purpose on this earth is just to do whatever is good for you and screw everyone else, then I'd say it's people like THAT who are counterproductive to society....because, as is inherint in the name SOCIETY is a SOCIAL organism. People are, by most accounts, inherintly social animals. So working towards the common good would seem to be about the ONLY point to life from where I sit.
But, again, I probably can't change your mind and you obviously feel very strongly about you position on this. And I can understand how you feel that way. Like I said, I get it. I get why you would feel no real responsibility to other people in society. I get why you're offended by people who seem to be leeching off of society. And a good friend of mine once told me that you'll always lose an arguement if you can see both sides and the other person can't....so I guess you can go ahead and chalk one up in the win column for yourself.
First, Jimmy, I don't think folks here (this thread) are quite as cold hearted as you possibly imply (depending on one's reading). People have made statements about giving independently etc...
Second, Kyle, pardon my brashness here, but I think Jimmy is speaking to a broader subject now which may have been obfuscated by the length of his tirade.
He (in my humble opinion) is arguing for the possibility of a human first view point. Not only for the sake of others but because we are social creatures and that is where we best derive meaning and happiness, in realizing ourselves through others.
Eastern Cultures and tribal societies have put this thinking over atomistic autonomous thinking for millenia. Then somewhere along the line the western world began telling us we were profit maximizing autonomous beings who had to look out for ourselves and our own.
Now maybe Jimmy is neatly sidestepping the practical issue of the so called 'daily life of the common man'. I don't know
Second, Kyle, pardon my brashness here, but I think Jimmy is speaking to a broader subject now which may have been obfuscated by the length of his tirade.
He (in my humble opinion) is arguing for the possibility of a human first view point. Not only for the sake of others but because we are social creatures and that is where we best derive meaning and happiness, in realizing ourselves through others.
Eastern Cultures and tribal societies have put this thinking over atomistic autonomous thinking for millenia. Then somewhere along the line the western world began telling us we were profit maximizing autonomous beings who had to look out for ourselves and our own.
Now maybe Jimmy is neatly sidestepping the practical issue of the so called 'daily life of the common man'. I don't know
No, Zoss, I recognize the daily life of the common man arugument so I woudln't say I was sidestepping it. And I guess one can choose to simply take that outlook on life, as it seems Kyle here has. I just don't agree with it as being the most productive way for socitey to progress and that, I think, was what we were discussing here.
Kyle, I'm having trouble with this arguement because we're not playing on the same field. You're assuming no inherint value in social interaction and mutual benefit; I assume the opposite.
I go back and forth with this issue between the "pragmatic" side of myself that knows that my time here is short and I want to get the most out of it I can and my "idealistic" side which wants to leave a mark, so to speak, before I depart and wants to work towards, I guess my own definition of, the common good.
And yeah the tirade thing...go to the thread on Israel vs Palestine...it's been a long day for me...sorry....
Let me gather my thoughts and try and hit this in smaller doses...christ...I feel like I'M on drugs...
Oh and real quick; didn't mean to make it a "black white issue". Just for future reference I was telling you that that was the assumption I was making about you so that you could correct me if I was wrong. However, I think ECONOMIC is a better way of putting it than CULTURAL as being the root of the problem. Culture still envokes race in many cases (ie, black culture, muslim culture etc.)
Kyle, I'm having trouble with this arguement because we're not playing on the same field. You're assuming no inherint value in social interaction and mutual benefit; I assume the opposite.
I go back and forth with this issue between the "pragmatic" side of myself that knows that my time here is short and I want to get the most out of it I can and my "idealistic" side which wants to leave a mark, so to speak, before I depart and wants to work towards, I guess my own definition of, the common good.
And yeah the tirade thing...go to the thread on Israel vs Palestine...it's been a long day for me...sorry....
Let me gather my thoughts and try and hit this in smaller doses...christ...I feel like I'M on drugs...
Oh and real quick; didn't mean to make it a "black white issue". Just for future reference I was telling you that that was the assumption I was making about you so that you could correct me if I was wrong. However, I think ECONOMIC is a better way of putting it than CULTURAL as being the root of the problem. Culture still envokes race in many cases (ie, black culture, muslim culture etc.)
I don't believe the "Economic" argument since so many have risen from the depths of poverty to own businesses, acheive notoriety or for that matter those of priviledge that p!$$ed it all away. I think it is truly cultural. A streetwise black kid will be supported in his belief structure the same as any hillbilly in the Ozarks.
As for the former issue...Actually I'm disagreeing with what you believe is of "mutual benefit".
I find no benefit in supporting drug addiction(or alcohol for that matter), or any wreckless behavior!
If these people are a drain and they don't want to change they will continue to harm society. Not enhance it!
All the healing circles, communes and campfire Kum-by-Ahhhs won't change the effect it has on society.
Continually attempting to help these people up everytime they do something stupid to themselves actually has a detrimental effect on society by draining resource that could be educating, building or protecting this nation. But I guess these last things are just me being selfish!
UFB
First, can we please refrain from the jr. high debate tactics. That Kum by yah comment was off base and juvenile.
And yes, your view is you being selfish, how astute of you to notice. Ok, actually you're a bit off, you're still assuming you have no human duty to the suffering. (For kicks lets say drugged out pieces of junk are suffering, they're beating the 'ell out of themselves for some reason right)
You pay your taxes, you send your kicks to school, you vote... you do all that our infallible founding fathers and the western traditon ask of you. Meanwhile you live in country which plunders the resources of the world with little to no concern for the results of its actions because it, like you, are just following those deified doctrines of capitalism, autonomy, reason.
I challenge you to consider that a little more universal compassion might make you a happier and better man. Show that druggie that they have something respectable about them, that they can have a social place with meaning and responsibility, the fact that some people make doesn't mean that everyone gets the message, and then cold opportunities are a poor substitute for a reaffirming social network.
Or watch t.v., its america, as long as you follow the rules you can be as big a b*****d as you like, heck, you can even be self righteous and cynical about it.
And yes, your view is you being selfish, how astute of you to notice. Ok, actually you're a bit off, you're still assuming you have no human duty to the suffering. (For kicks lets say drugged out pieces of junk are suffering, they're beating the 'ell out of themselves for some reason right)
You pay your taxes, you send your kicks to school, you vote... you do all that our infallible founding fathers and the western traditon ask of you. Meanwhile you live in country which plunders the resources of the world with little to no concern for the results of its actions because it, like you, are just following those deified doctrines of capitalism, autonomy, reason.
I challenge you to consider that a little more universal compassion might make you a happier and better man. Show that druggie that they have something respectable about them, that they can have a social place with meaning and responsibility, the fact that some people make doesn't mean that everyone gets the message, and then cold opportunities are a poor substitute for a reaffirming social network.
Or watch t.v., its america, as long as you follow the rules you can be as big a b*****d as you like, heck, you can even be self righteous and cynical about it.