Hypp

[happyappygirl]

What I would NOT do is breed symptomatic to symptomatic horses. In other words, a pop-eye'd horse to another one. I would also not breed double silver to double silver. i would breed double silver (Homozygous) to heterozygous silver (carrying one copy of the silver gene).

As in I would breed:
a known ASD+ with no vision effects (chocolate and white stallion) to a chocolate and white filly (cycts only) and who has a black parent, and I know carries only one copy of the silver gene

or:

I would breed 2 chocolate and white horses who each had one copy of the gene and probably one black parent each. Your chance of getting a chocolate and white foal is actually only 50-50 in this case.

Your chance of a full blown ASD foal are very low according to statistics in these cases. I also DNA all breeding stock so i know exactly what my horses carry genetically and can make informed choices. THAT is what makes the breed better.

 

[happyappygirl]

Happy, I did not read the article. I'm not familiar with ASD, but my comments were referring to your comments on HYPP.

I can only assume the genetics issue is the same. Although I don't fully understand HYPP. Breeding is a crap shoot, but when we have the tools available that give us enough information to make good decisions, I'm all for using them!

With HYPP if i chose to breed a H/N, or N/N horse to an H/H horse, i would immediately do the DNA (the results only take a week or less), and if it is H/H, i would make a very sad choice. If it was H/N, I would most likely be happy with my breeding choice.

Same with my own Rocky breeding program. If my choice produces a foal who is pop-eye'd and obviously affected adversely, i would do the right thing and make a sad choice. That may not be what people want to hear, but it's the responsible thing, and i accept that responsibility, to potentially produce superior stock on all fronts.

However, I don't have to breed affected to affected, we do have a nice sized gene pool, and I can make other choices, as do the QH folks. The significance of an H/N horse is only evident in it's breeding status. If it's a gelding, won't be bred anyways, and it will most likely never show signs, as I believe only the H/H horses are symptomatic.

In our case with ASD, even a Z/Z horse (carrying 2 copies of the silver gene) does NOT make it symptomatic. ASD is a completely different issue then a life threatening illness.

 

[Cowgirl]

I can only assume the genetics issue is the same. Although I don't fully understand HYPP. Breeding is a crap shoot, but when we have the tools available that give us enough information to make good decisions, I'm all for using them!

With HYPP if i chose to breed a H/N, or N/N horse to an H/H horse, i would immediately do the DNA (the results only take a week or less), and if it is H/H, i would make a very sad choice. If it was H/N, I would most likely be happy with my breeding choice.

Same with my own Rocky breeding program. If my choice produces a foal who is pop-eye'd and obviously affected adversely, i would do the right thing and make a sad choice. That may not be what people want to hear, but it's the responsible thing, and i accept that responsibility, to potentially produce superior stock on all fronts.

However, I don't have to breed affected to affected, we do have a nice sized gene pool, and I can make other choices, as do the QH folks. The significance of an H/N horse is only evident in it's breeding status. If it's a gelding, won't be bred anyways, and it will most likely never show signs, as I believe only the H/H horses are symptomatic.

In our case with ASD, even a Z/Z horse (carrying 2 copies of the silver gene) does NOT make it symptomatic. ASD is a completely different issue then a life threatening illness.

Ok, my issue was mainly with HYPP. I think it is totally irresponsible to breed any horse that carries the gene for HYPP. What happens if someone who is totally clueless about the illness breeds that horse to another horse also carrying the gene? It's a cycle that needs to be broken. It's not fair to the horses (who are the ones who suffer).

I'll read up on ASD....like I said before, I'm not all that familiar with it.

 

[happyappygirl]

N/H carries one gene...the horse is HYPP positive...you need to watch the diet etc..he can have fits....if bred there is a 50/50 chance the foal will be N/H if you have an H/H horse then the baby will be N/H if bred to an N/N horse..

Basically an N/H horse is positive and you must treat them accordingly..POTASSIUM IS THE ENEMY ...all hay is high in potassium (K) if hay is given it should be soaked for an hour and drained before feeding..beet pulp is low in grain NO sugars like sweet feed or molassas...

So carrying one copy of the gene and it "can" be symptomatic? Or it "will" be symptomatic? Or is it progressive and changes over time?

 

[Pasofever]

I. If it was H/N, I would most likely be happy with my breeding choice.

. If it's a gelding, won't be bred anyways, and it will most likely never show signs, .

Roger is N/H and he will flip and flop if his diet is not correct..I know several N/H geldings that flip and flop (seizures) they are on daily meds and diet still does not help..

I do NOT agree with your statement here at all sorry..

Ps you know Rogers diet and someone that works full time really could not handle him..he is an all day chore..

 

[Pasofever]

Think about it...an N/H horse can not have over 1% potassium a day...Hay is ALL over 1% most grains are high..

An N/H gelding can not have electrolites...a red salt lick...hay...grass...ace..molassas...many many things..read your labels and you will see how much K you give the average horse a day..it would KILL my gelding..

 

[happyappygirl]

Think about it...an N/H horse can not have over 1% potassium a day...Hay is ALL over 1% most grains are high..

An N/H gelding can not have electrolites...a red salt lick...hay...grass...ace..molassas...many many things..read your labels and you will see how much K you give the average horse a day..it would KILL my gelding..

WOW...see that, HYPP is totally different from ASD and the silver factors. There isn't a DNA test for ASD yet. It's not even a confirmed link to the silver gene, it's strongly suspected due to many of the ASD or cystic horses do carry the silver gene. And one copy of the silver gene produces cysts, but they are not an issue at all. AND even though people THINK black horses don't have cysts or ASD, they most certainly CAN and do, and a black horse doesn't carry the silver modifier or it would be chocolate, as silver ONLY effects the color black.

So one copy is dominant and symptomatic in HYPP. That's too bad....MAN.
That's where education/experience come into play.

Are ALL N/H horses symptomatic? Or is it hit or miss?

 

[Robin]

I can only assume the genetics issue is the same. Although I don't fully understand HYPP. Breeding is a crap shoot, but when we have the tools available that give us enough information to make good decisions, I'm all for using them!

With HYPP if i chose to breed a H/N, or N/N horse to an H/H horse, i would immediately do the DNA (the results only take a week or less), and if it is H/H, i would make a very sad choice. If it was H/N, I would most likely be happy with my breeding choice.

Same with my own Rocky breeding program. If my choice produces a foal who is pop-eye'd and obviously affected adversely, i would do the right thing and make a sad choice. That may not be what people want to hear, but it's the responsible thing, and i accept that responsibility, to potentially produce superior stock on all fronts.

However, I don't have to breed affected to affected, we do have a nice sized gene pool, and I can make other choices, as do the QH folks. The significance of an H/N horse is only evident in it's breeding status. If it's a gelding, won't be bred anyways, and it will most likely never show signs, as I believe only the H/H horses are symptomatic.

In our case with ASD, even a Z/Z horse (carrying 2 copies of the silver gene) does NOT make it symptomatic. ASD is a completely different issue then a life threatening illness.

Happy maybe I am reading this wrong..correct me please..you are saying you would breed a horse with hypp?

 

[Pasofever]

So one copy is dominant and symptomatic in HYPP. That's too bad....MAN.
That's where education/experience come into play.

I figured you did not know what you were talking about with HYPP...

the ONLY way to go with HYPP in my opinion (and I have had an HYPP horse for 5 yrs) I would NOT get another one..is to go N/N read up on it..then you will understand...even an N/N bred to an H/N will give you an H/N horse...Impressive (the problem horse with HYPP) is like 6 generations back in Rogers pedigree and it is my research that shows all are N/H and NO H/H horses in his background..

 

[Pasofever]

Happy maybe I am reading this wrong..correct me please..you are saying you would breed a horse with hypp?

Yes she did at first.. Tell her Robin about the research and problems I have just feeding Roger on a daily basis...TVM

 

[happyappygirl]

Happy maybe I am reading this wrong..correct me please..you are saying you would breed a horse with hypp?

Robin, my comments were directed at the dominant/recessive genes, modes of inheritance and expression.

I was also speaking relative to the ASD issue, which is different than HYPP in EXPRESSION. In the heterozygous form (one copy of the gene), ASD produces cysts which have no adverse effect on the horse's vision.

It sounds like HYPP DOES have negative expressive effects on the horse even in hetero (one copy of the gene) form (ie N/H). I don't understand the mode of inheritance or expression for HYPP, if our horses were affected, I'd certainly do my homework before making any breeding decisions, but if even the hetero form causes adverse effects in 100% of cases, then of course, NO. But i just don't understand it enough.

 

[Pasofever]

http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/

 

[Robin]

I just know what Paso had to go through researching, talking to 2 different equine nutritionists' just to find a diet that worked well for Roger. The countless hours talking back and forth and having different hay tested finding the correct brand of Beet pulp (yes they are not all the same just because it says beet pulp on the bag) different regions processed just like hay. Special orders because she has to forcast long term supplies not to have to worry about a different order or the saying I changed suppliers. I just know if folks researched better they would not be defending what good breeders are trying to keep from producing to tarnish a certain breed.

 

[Pasofever]

Here is an attack of a H/N mare


http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/HVideo.html


warning may be upsetting to some peeps but get used to it if you have an HYPP horse that is not maintained and one day he will be

 

[happyappygirl]

Yes she did at first.. Tell her Robin about the research and problems I have just feeding Roger on a daily basis...TVM

Of course, I've seen them, Paso. As i said, I didn't know that even in recessive cases, the expression has negative effects on the horse. That's an awful disease and absolutely should be stopped by ONLY breeding N/N horses, if at all possible.

Once the knowledge is achieved, complete elimination simply can't happen over night...which this isn't the case with QHs I know, but in Rockies and ASD, we are in the very early stages of elimination because these tests have only JUST been developed, so NOW we can be proactive and actually DO something, with the knowledge we have achieved. As is the case with the QH industry NOW that they have had a number of years to respond to the knowledge, good sound breeding choices should occur (I know money talks).

If we say in Rockies don't breed ANY ASD or double silver horses, we will completely wipe out the color and breed distinction as we know it. It's just too early in the life cycle. But through diligence, like I'm talking about, we can make vast improvements by the breeding choice made from here forward.

Paso, you bought him, and i believe you knew his HYPP status prior to purchasing him, correct?

 

[Pasofever]

.

Paso, you bought him, and i believe you knew his HYPP status prior to purchasing him, correct?

Absolutly not I would not have paid 10K for an HYPP horse...not with his other issues to boot...I found out almost a year later after he had "fit" and I DNA tested him....

 

[happyappygirl]

I've seen an HYPP attack in the flesh. Lovely filly a fellow had just purchased was in the stall right next to where i was standing, it was AWFUL. She wasn't even broke yet. He didn't know she had it until that moment.

 

[Robin]

Ok, my issue was mainly with HYPP. I think it is totally irresponsible to breed any horse that carries the gene for HYPP. What happens if someone who is totally clueless about the illness breeds that horse to another horse also carrying the gene? It's a cycle that needs to be broken. It's not fair to the horses (who are the ones who suffer).

I'll read up on ASD....like I said before, I'm not all that familiar with it.

Absolutely well said, unfortunitly it may take a little longer for asd to be fully understood and what trial and error has produced or how it will evolve. A responsible breeder would try and stay away from hindering the breed.

 

[Pasofever]

I've seen an HYPP attack in the flesh. Lovely filly a fellow had just purchased was in the stall right next to where i was standing, it was AWFUL. She wasn't even broke yet. He didn't know she had it until that moment.

After that I do not know how you could say you would breed and be happy with an HYPP N/H horse...:sad:

 

[happyappygirl]

Absolutly not I would not have paid 10K for an HYPP horse...not with his other issues to boot...I found out almost a year later after he had "fit" and I DNA tested him....

Wonder why it took a YEAR to show up at your place? Is it progressive?
DNA testing isn't required for registry?