I'm wondering...

[vraiblonde]

We trust that the Apostles and other disciples have not deceived us and have passed that information to us through their writings and teachings, which have been handed on to us through the generations, and we trust the people that have been a part of those generations.

Then why don't you believe that "God's" name is really Zeus or Jupiter? Why don't you believe the religions that pre-date Christ and were the predominate ones until they were prohibited in favor of Christianity? Why don't you trust the ancient Greeks and Romans like you trust the ancient Middle Easterners?

Not trying to be contentious, just trying to have a discussion.

 

[Goofing_Off]

Has a little kid ever asked you something that you don't know the whole answer to so you just make something up? That's what I feel religion is like. The Romans made up Gods as did the ancient Greeks and Native Americans to explain things. (that's how I see it) I also think that the Old Testament, no matter what version you've read, is stories that have been passed down generation after generation until they were finally written down. That sounds like a huge game of grapevine to me, and you know how that game ends up. I also think that when the apostles wrote the New Testament that there was a lot of mushroom eating an hemp smoking going on then. I believe there was a man named Jesus who tried to get people to stop being awful and to be kind, as did Buddha, but I don't believe that Jesus did all the things Matthew, Mark, Luke and all the other dudes said he did in the way he did them. As for our chaotic world, we humans have screwed that up for ourselves. We don't need anything or anyone else to do that for us

I myself will admit when I do not know something about my faith, because there are indeed many mysteries which I do not understand, and I am comfortable with that. There is a lot I do not know about the material world, too, but that doesn't bother me, so I do not let the fact that I do not know everything about my faith trouble me either.

As far as trying to explain something to children, we have to talk to children in a more simple way to help them understand, so in trying to simplify things for them, we may sometimes make things up to help them understand. For example, if I am telling a child who God is, then I probably portray Him with the usual imagery of a person (big white beard, a man, etc.) when in fact God is a spiritual being. I do this knowing that their understanding will change as they grow. It's not necessarily that I'm "making something up."

 

[mAlice]

What were you looking to have happen? I mean, something good must have happened to you in that time that you could attribute to God, right?

I wasn't looking for anything, but after listening to everyone go on and on about why they believe, it sounds like something should have been revealed to me, like it was to them. I just don't get. What is this "holy spirit" thing that they got and I didn't? Where are the miracles? Why can they see god in a tree or a newborn baby and I can't?

Plenty of good and bad things happened during that time in my life, but I never saw them as miracles, or attributed them to a god or a demon. Sh!t just happens. :shrug:

 

[Goofing_Off]

Then why don't you believe that "God's" name is really Zeus or Jupiter? Why don't you believe the religions that pre-date Christ and were the predominate ones until they were prohibited in favor of Christianity? Why don't you trust the ancient Greeks and Romans like you trust the ancient Middle Easterners?

Not trying to be contentious, just trying to have a discussion.

Faith is a choice in part. I choose to believe in Christianity. I've made a conscious decision as I've grown up to trust that my family did not decieve me in teaching me this faith, and that their ancestors did not deceive them through the generations, all the way back to my first family members who heard a disciple preach the Good News of Jesus, believed in it, and decided to become Christian. I trust that in turn that that disciple was not deceived in learning about the faith all the way back to the Apostles and ultimately Jesus Himself. Moreover, outside of my family, I trust that the Church has preserved this tradition faithfully throughout the ages itself. Again, I choose to believe.

 

[vraiblonde]

Why can they see god in a tree or a newborn baby and I can't?

Because you don't want to see it. If you did want to see it, you would.

Sh!t just happens.

And that's the difference - Christians don't believe that #### just happens. They believe God made it that way and it's for a purpose.

 

[vraiblonde]

Again, I choose to believe.

Thank you. That's what I'm trying to get across to Elaine.

 

[mAlice]

Thank you. That's what I'm trying to get across to Elaine.

Well, I know it's a choice. When I made that choice, where was my freakin' miracle? Where was my holy spirit? That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

 

[rdonthehd]

I myself will admit when I do not know something about my faith, because there are indeed many mysteries which I do not understand, and I am comfortable with that. There is a lot I do not know about the material world, too, but that doesn't bother me, so I do not let the fact that I do not know everything about my faith trouble me either.

As far as trying to explain something to children, we have to talk to children in a more simple way to help them understand, so in trying to simplify things for them, we may sometimes make things up to help them understand. For example, if I am telling a child who God is, then I probably portray Him with the usual imagery of a person (big white beard, a man, etc.) when in fact God is a spiritual being. I do this knowing that their understanding will change as they grow. It's not necessarily that I'm "making something up."

I feel comfy not know somethings too, but when I think something doesn't make sense, I try to find an answer. I also know that you teach children in a way they can understand, but what I meant by that was, it seems to me that religion started out as a way to explain things away because we probably didn't have the means to rationalize back in the day (and sometimes today as well) I don't mean to disrespect or belittle anyone with faith, I mean, some people need something to turn to more than others.

 

[vraiblonde]

When I made that choice, where was my freakin' miracle? Where was my holy spirit? That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

You made it conditional - "I'll believe IF you show me a miracle." And when you didn't get a miracle, you stopped believing.

Faith means that you believe no matter what. The story of Job is a great example of this - God gets into a pissing contest with Satan and ruins your life, you're not supposed to get mad, you're supposed to think there's a reason for it and that God is looking out for your best interests.

They're called followers of Christ, not leaders.

 

[mAlice]

You made it conditional - "I'll believe IF you show me a miracle." And when you didn't get a miracle, you stopped believing.

Faith means that you believe no matter what. The story of Job is a great example of this - God gets into a pissing contest with Satan and ruins your life, you're not supposed to get mad, you're supposed to think there's a reason for it and that God is looking out for your best interests.

They're called followers of Christ, not leaders.

No, I didn't expect anything at the time. We're looking at past and present thoughts. The questions of where was my miracle or why couldn't I feel something never even occurred to me until today.

 

[Goofing_Off]

Vrai, may I ask why you say you're an atheist? I can understand agnosticism, but I have a hard time understanding atheism. It seems to me to be abundently evident that things must be created by someone or something. To not believe that God created the world seems to me to be the same thing as telling me that a man did not build my computer and it spontaneously created itself. How do you reconcile this?

 

[vraiblonde]

Stop that - you'll mess up your makeup

So then what made you stop believing, if you weren't expecting signs or miracles? Why not just keep on believing, since you weren't looking for anything and it doesn't hurt you?

 

[mAlice]

Stop that - you'll mess up your makeup

So then what made you stop believing, if you weren't expecting signs or miracles? Why not just keep on believing, since you weren't looking for anything and it doesn't hurt you?

Nothing worth changing the topic for.

 

[dems4me]

Because you don't want to see it. If you did want to see it, you would.

And that's the difference - Christians don't believe that #### just happens. They believe God made it that way and it's for a purpose.

I'm Christian and I beileve that #### happens :shrug: to me it does not mean God is in control any less, it just means I, in my small wisdom compared to God's infinite wisdom, just don't have an explanatino for it and may never know why somethings happen, I'm not God and its certainly NOT my place to judge God why things happen the way they do sometimes. I, in my small wisdom just simply don't know the reason sometimes (it doesn't mean there isn't a reason for things happening)... so while I'm here on this planet and just because can't rationalize or understand why bad things happen, I'll continue to see it as "shiatt happens" scenarios. I may or may never know why one day, but I'm not the one in charge - God is... just like I have good days or bad days... good experience in life and bad.... shiat just happens sometimes to all of us. JMO(s).

 

[PJay]

It seems to me to be abundently evident that things must be created by someone or something. To not believe that God created the world seems to me to be the same thing as telling me that a man did not build my computer and it spontaneously created itself.

One of the very first things we "see", and yes, even those living in trees.

 

[vraiblonde]

Vrai, may I ask why you say you're an atheist? I can understand agnosticism, but I have a hard time understanding atheism. It seems to me to be abundently evident that things must be created by someone or something. To not believe that God created the world seems to me to be the same thing as telling me that a man did not build my computer and it spontaneously created itself. How do you reconcile this?

See, and I have a hard time with agnostics. You either believe or you don't, which leaves agnostics out in the cold because if they're not sure, that means they don't believe. Otherwise they'd be sure.

Obviously I'm an athiest because I don't believe in Gods and higher powers. To me, God is a simplistic answer to how the universe got created, why humans act the way they do, why you should behave yourself and be a good citizen, etc. It's how you reconcile questions that you don't know the answer to.

The earth was created over billions of years, with little atoms bonding together through trial and error until something stuck and life could be formed. I don't believe there was an intelligent design - I believe humans as we know them are only temporary (relatively speaking) until something else evolves to take their place and they become extinct. We see little accidents of nature all the time, just not huge ones that took a billion years to solidify.

There have been a myriad of religions and Gods throughout history that were just as real to those people as your God is to you. And they lasted just as long as Christianity has so far. So I think that modern religion is a passing phase that will be replaced by some other diety and belief system. After all, at one point Greek and Roman mythology were modern religions. :shrug:

The question of "Who made the earth?" is always replied to with "Well, who made God?" which is replied to with "God was always there." So why couldn't the molecules that made up the universe have always been there? Because, frankly, the perpetuity of molecules makes more sense to me than the perpetuity of a supreme being.

 

[Goofing_Off]

See, and I have a hard time with agnostics. You either believe or you don't, which leaves agnostics out in the cold because if they're not sure, that means they don't believe. Otherwise they'd be sure.

Obviously I'm an athiest because I don't believe in Gods and higher powers. To me, God is a simplistic answer to how the universe got created, why humans act the way they do, why you should behave yourself and be a good citizen, etc. It's how you reconcile questions that you don't know the answer to.

The earth was created over billions of years, with little atoms bonding together through trial and error until something stuck and life could be formed. I don't believe there was an intelligent design - I believe humans as we know them are only temporary (relatively speaking) until something else evolves to take their place and they become extinct. We see little accidents of nature all the time, just not huge ones that took a billion years to solidify.

There have been a myriad of religions and Gods throughout history that were just as real to those people as your God is to you. And they lasted just as long as Christianity has so far. So I think that modern religion is a passing phase that will be replaced by some other diety and belief system. After all, at one point Greek and Roman mythology were modern religions. :shrug:

The question of "Who made the earth?" is always replied to with "Well, who made God?" which is replied to with "God was always there." So why couldn't the molecules that made up the universe have always been there? Because, frankly, the perpetuity of molecules makes more sense to me than the perpetuity of a supreme being.

So, in essence, you do believe that it is possible for a computer's parts to randomly assemble to create a computer?

I know it seems silly, but something like this is ultimately to where that logic would lead.

 

[dems4me]

So, in essence, you do believe that it is possible for a computer's parts to randomly assemble to create a computer?

I know it seems silly, but something like this is ultimately to where that logic would lead.

I mentioned this theory a while back ago... about "every design implementing a designer" and got laughed out the forum and no one understood what I was getting at ... I'd give up and let them think what they want if I were you when its all said and done, they will believe what they really want to believe anyways in the end..

 

[mAlice]

So, in essence, you do believe that it is possible for a computer's parts to randomly assemble to create a computer?

This is just a theory But wouldn't a man create a computer, just like he created a god?

 

[Mikeinsmd]

So, in essence, you do believe that it is possible for a computer's parts to randomly assemble to create a computer? I know it seems silly, but something like this is ultimately to where that logic would lead.

Bad example....., molecules and atoms etc. can haphazzardly come together to form a lifeform that evolves into man who builds the computer....Plastic pieces cannot.