I'm wondering...

[crabcake]

Personally speaking, it comes down to what's believable ... common sense. Murder is comprehendable (people do it every day; not saying I condone it or understand why someone does it, but they do it and you see it done); the existence of my brain or atoms ... comprehendable/explainable. You can actually see them, and science's explanation of them makes sense.

But when you try to tell someone "there's this supreme being out there who knows all, sees all, controls all" ... yet there's no physical evidence (as with a brain, an atom ... just what essentially boils down to hearsay), that's not comprehendable/believable to many.

And to continue with that, and 2As "block in the wood chipper" theory, with religion, it's different. A block is insignificant ... religion is something that people have and continue to fight over. Yet there's no way to go back and get that evidence. All we're left with is a book which has been chopped up over time and of which there are many versions of. How is one to know just what the truth really is/was? :shrug:

 

[dems4me]

Woof.

No, Dems, science is not "penned" by man - it is studied by man. If you have doubts about science, then why all this talk about reproductive organs and celestial bodies? Why not believe that babies come from the cabbage patch and stars are God's nightlights?

Yes, its studied by man just as the bible is studied by man too.
Science was still and is still 100% mans thoughts and analysis, its not like the buzzards are out flying around scoping out the atomosphere and reporting back everything to be fact and man sitting around just "studying" it. The idea of science and its notations came from somewhere...

 

[Kain99]

And to continue with that, and 2As "block in the wood chipper" theory, with religion, it's different. A block is insignificant ... religion is something that people have and continue to fight over. Yet there's no way to go back and get that evidence. All we're left with is a book which has been chopped up over time and of which there are many versions of. How is one to know just what the truth really is/was? :shrug:

Well... It's easy. On one hand you can believe without proof and be safe. On the other hand you can argue Science and use your intelligence atoms to disbelieve.

Option number one: Everyone is safe and no one gets hurt.

Option number two: Horrendously risky.

 

[2ndAmendment]

That's just silly. Why can't we belive that Adam and Eve were hairy people?

Man is created in the image of God. Do you think God looks like a hairy, hunchback man?

God is so far beyond human comprehension we only perceive what He chooses to reveal to us. Some of us choose to ignore or refute what He reveals. Of course the Bible says that as we get closer to the last days of this creation, people will quit believing and even believers will fall away and stop believing. So... what is happening is all going according to Biblical prophesy.

 

[crabcake]

Yes, its studied by man just as the bible is studied by man too.
Science was still and is still 100% mans thoughts and analysis, its not like the buzzards are out flying around scoping out the atomosphere and reporting back everything to be fact and man sitting around just "studying" it. The idea of science and its notations came from somewhere...

But science is actively practiced, tested ... there are 'things' scientists have to work with. To study religion, you read a book and (in some cases) practice what you preach/learn. But there isn't any 'product' of that study as with science.

Scientists study illness (a living patient), study medicines (an actual substance), and produce results (drugs that cure diseases). Where's the 'product' of one's study of religion? :shrug: Supposedly, you get into heaven, but how do you know if you haven't been and we haven't spoken to anyone who has.

 

[2ndAmendment]

You're also instructed to judge not lest thee be judged.

Ah..here we go again. Ignored.

 

[Kain99]

Man is created in the image of God. Do you think God looks like a hairy, hunchback man?

God is so far beyond human comprehension we only perceive what He chooses to reveal to us. Some of us choose to ignore or refute what He reveals. Of course the Bible says that as we get closer to the last days of this creation, people will quit believing and even believers will fall away and stop believing. So... what is happening is all going according to Biblical prophesy.

I'm going to be honest. It doesn't matter what God looks like. Arguments like these are where everything important gets lost.

 

[crabcake]

Well... It's easy. On one hand you can believe without proof and be safe. On the other hand you can argue Science and use your intelligence atoms to disbelieve.

Option number one: Everyone is safe and no one gets hurt.

Option number two: Horrendously risky.

You have to believe for that to be true. For me to believe it, I'm like Mike ... I need to see some evidence. In all seriousness, with all the effort put forth in trying to convert people to religion, why not refocus that energy on working toward providing the proof they ask for ... who could have conceived that scientists could produce the things they have, but they did it. :shrug:

 

[crabcake]

Ah..here we go again. Ignored.

Ah..here we go again. Hypocrite.

 

[Kain99]

You have to believe for that to be true. For me to believe it, I'm like Mike ... I need to see some evidence. In all seriousness, with all the effort put forth in trying to convert people to religion, why not refocus that energy on working toward providing the proof they ask for ... who could have conceived that scientists could produce the things they have, but they did it. :shrug:

Yeah but if I'm wrong, I'm still safe. If you're wrong LOOK OUT!

 

[2ndAmendment]

I'm going to be honest. It doesn't matter what God looks like. Arguments like these are where everything important gets lost.

Agreed.

 

[dems4me]

But science is actively practiced, tested ... there are 'things' scientists have to work with. To study religion, you read a book and (in some cases) practice what you preach/learn. But there isn't any 'product' of that study as with science.

Scientists study illness (a living patient), study medicines (an actual substance), and produce results (drugs that cure diseases). Where's the 'product' of one's study of religion? :shrug: Supposedly, you get into heaven, but how do you know if you haven't been and we haven't spoken to anyone who has.

Its all based on if you beileve in the inerrant Word of God. Do you really think God would sit by and just watch his spoken word get chopped to oblivion by man through the years? Isn't there something in the Bible (Revelations?) that strongly warn against changing any words of the Bible, etc... and that death will come to that person?
It is devinely written and I believe it... I pray and seek for help and guidance and I get it. If anything in the worldd I know there's a God more than I know that 2 plus 2 actually equals 4. Its just hard to describe... its something in your heart and is enriched through faith.

 

[Kain99]

Its all based on if you beileve in the inerrant Word of God. Do you really think God would sit by and just watch his spoken word get chopped to oblivion by man through the years? Isn't there something in the Bible (Revelations?) that strongly warn against changing any words of the Bible, etc... and that death will come to that person?
It is devinely written and I believe it... I pray and seek for help and guidance and I get it. If anything in the worldd I know there's a God more than I know that 2 plus 2 actually equals 4. Its just hard to describe... its something in your heart and is enriched through faith.

Warning or no warning the Bible has been "chopped"

 

[dems4me]

You have to believe for that to be true. For me to believe it, I'm like Mike ... I need to see some evidence. In all seriousness, with all the effort put forth in trying to convert people to religion, why not refocus that energy on working toward providing the proof they ask for ... who could have conceived that scientists could produce the things they have, but they did it. :shrug:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...104-7957162-3152718?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[crabcake]

Yeah but if I'm wrong, I'm still safe. If you're wrong LOOK OUT!

Perhaps. :shrug: I've never said there is no God ... as with others, and as I've said, I struggle with what I believe/disbelieve. And while -- aside from funerals -- I haven't stepped foot in a church in years; haven't picked up a bible recently except to pack it up to move; and haven't screamed "god" except while , I have to think that, if there is a God, having lived a good life, having helped others where I could, having at least made some sort of effort to 'understand', I'd be 'safe' too.

It's not like those of us who've said "show me" are out committing atrocious sin in the process. Most of us are your everyday neighbor just living a decent, moral life.

 

[crabcake]

Its all based on if you beileve in the inerrant Word of God. Do you really think God would sit by and just watch his spoken word get chopped to oblivion by man through the years?

Sure. :shrug: He sits by every day and watches as children are raped and killed; people die of starvation; villages are washed away by his own creation. If you ask me, that's a little worse than plagiarism.

 

[Dondi]

You have to believe for that to be true. For me to believe it, I'm like Mike ... I need to see some evidence. In all seriousness, with all the effort put forth in trying to convert people to religion, why not refocus that energy on working toward providing the proof they ask for ... who could have conceived that scientists could produce the things they have, but they did it. :shrug:

Reposted:

Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God:

What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means. Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.

What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.

I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it?

The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.

 

[crabcake]

Reposted:

Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God:

What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means. Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.

What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.

I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it?

The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.

I saw your post, but thanks for thinking of me.

I did the 'church/religion' thing for some time and didn't see/feel/sense any "proof".

But the theory you present is interesting. I'd like to see some evidence that it might be valid before twisting my brain to debate it.

 

[mAlice]

What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.

You mean that stuff that I never experienced when I was all caught up in "the truth"? I guess I wasn't good enough, 'cuz just like CC, I never experienced the voices in my head.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Sure it can.... different substances are combined naturally all the time forming non-living things. Clouds & storms for example.... Why do you keep going off on tangents??

Several hundred years ago?? You mean back when science was cutting edge??

Again no one except Vrai has attempted to answer my question.

Ever heard of Louis Pasteur? I am amazed that textbooks can present in one section that spontaneous generation was disproved by Pasteur and in another section present the theory of evolution which has its very base in spontaneous generation.