I'm wondering...

[2ndAmendment]

Since I was a little kid, I have visited many many religious institutions looking for my own answers because the ones I was getting didn't make sense to me. I don't know what answer I'm looking for, but I will know it when I find it. (does that make sense?)

It makes perfect sense to me. I've tried many different religions, different churches, different preachers - you name it - and have never found the "fit" for me. Maybe someday I'll find it as I will never give up hope but if I don't, I can live with that.

That is not to say I am not a spiritual person. My beliefs are a very personal and very real thing to me. I was an angry and bitter person for many years. Through my personal spiritual journey, I've learned to let go of the anger, forgive those for what they've done to me, and open my heart again. It has made a world of difference in my life and I am a much better person for it. It may not work for everyone but for me it does.

I suggest to you both that you are looking for your answers in humans instead of God. All ministers are going to have flaws just as every other human has flaws. I suggest that you look to God to find answers and then find a group you are comfortable with to worship with. They may not be an exact match (I have never found one.), but there will be a group that you are comfortable with. A good church fit will feel like a good family; the family you have wanted, not necessarily the one you were born in to.

 

[Mikeinsmd]

I would just like the clarify that in every one of my posts, I was not trying to convince you that God exists. Only you can convince yourself of that. I was simply trying to show you the flaws that I see in your logic that prevent you from believing in God. I don't think I was able to do that, but I made my attempt, in what I hope you recognize was a good spirit.

 

[Chasey_Lane]

I suggest that you look to God to find answers and then find a group you are comfortable with to worship with. They may not be an exact match (I have never found one.), but there will be a group that you are comfortable with.

From both of their posts, I gathered they were doing just that and haven't found the perfect one. Am I wrong?

 

[jazz lady]

From both of their posts, I gathered they were doing just that and haven't found the perfect one. Am I wrong?

You are correct in my case. It doesn't have to be perfect either - just a good fit.

 

[2ndAmendment]

God himself come down and address me. If that happens, I'll run 2A off these boards preaching!!

I am agnostic. I can't prove there isn't a God and you cannot prove there is.

Just so everyone understands, I hope there is a God. A kind and FORGIVING God. But until I have indisputable proof......

The life of Jesus is a historical fact. Even the Muslims recognize that He lived on this earth. Jews even recognize that He lived and walked among people. The evidence is indisputable except by the most ignorant of history.

The disagreement comes as to whether Jesus is God come as man. "Is Jesus the Son of Man?" is the question. There is much evidence that He performed many miracles both in the Bible and in documents not included in the Bible. He fulfilled every prophesy of the Old Testament which is the Torah of the Jews regarding the coming of the Messiah. Some of these events happened regarding His birth; something He could not have chosen to fulfill if He was consciously trying to fulfill the prophesies.

Belief is just that; faith is just that. If you see a rock and pick it up and throw it in the water, you do not need faith to believe that there is a rock. Someone that comes along and did not see the rock before you threw it in the water has to have faith that you saw the rock and had it in your hand and that you threw it in the water. It is by your testimony that the person believes you had the rock. The same applies to Jesus. Those that lived with Him saw and heard Him. They experienced what He did. They saw or personally experienced the miracles. Even Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples, did not believe the report of the resurrection of Jesus.

John 20:24-25

<sup id="en-NASB-26892">24</sup>But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

<sup id="en-NASB-26893">25</sup>So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

We have the account of the proof provided to Thomas and the reason why the gospels were written; so that by their testimony, we would believe.

John 20:26-31

<sup id="en-NASB-26894">26</sup>After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."

<sup id="en-NASB-26895">27</sup>Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

<sup id="en-NASB-26896">28</sup>Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

<sup id="en-NASB-26897">29</sup>Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

<sup id="en-NASB-26898">30</sup>Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; <sup id="en-NASB-26899">31</sup>but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

In court, the testimony of a few people given before a group of 12 is used to determine the guilt or innocence of people in our legal system. We have the evidence of written documentation from many people that Jesus is who He is, the embodiment of God in human form, the Son of Man, the Savior provided for all who accept, and the Lord of all. By that testimony we either choose to believe or not believe. At that point, the eventual blessing or consequence of our decision is on us.

 

[crabcake]

Those that lived with Him saw and heard Him. They experienced what He did. They saw or personally experienced the miracles.

I really wish they'd join the discussions on this forum.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Because the things you mentioned can be proven by science. I can't see Julius but I can be shown atoms.

Much of science is not proven but is theory. Most humans accept those theories. Why?

Remember that the best scientists as recently as 1492 believed that the earth was flat.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I really wish they'd join the discussions on this forum.

And I wish you wouldn't since you never seem to have anything of real worth to offer.

 

[crabcake]

And I wish you wouldn't since you never seem to have anything of real worth to offer.

I meant that as in "because it'd be interesting/credible to hear this stuff from a first-person perspective" vs. many-years-old hearsay.

Real "Christian" attitude you're representin'.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Is it one of the XXX sauces like Dave's Insanity? or Smack My a$$ and call me Sally?

Blair's After Death or Possible Side Effects or Mega Death. I had them all there at the party.

 

[Dondi]

Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God:

What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means. Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.

What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.

I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it?

The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I meant that as in "because it'd be interesting/credible to hear this stuff from a first-person perspective" vs. many-years-old hearsay.

Real "Christian" attitude you're representin'.

Your original remark smacked of your normal snideness. If I misunderstood your intent, sorry.

As to your original remark, we have their testimony. Just as we have Einstein's testimony about the theory of relativity. He is not here to give us his explanation directly. We accept his writings on the subject. I ask why people do not accept the writings of those that experienced Jesus while He walked on the earth.

My attitude is quite Christian since we are instructed to not cast our pearls before swine.

 

[crabcake]

My attitude is quite Christian since we are instructed to not cast our pearls before swine.

You're also instructed to judge not lest thee be judged.

 

[Mikeinsmd]

Much of science is not proven but is theory. Most humans accept those theories. Why? Remember that the best scientists as recently as 1492 believed that the earth was flat.

Agreed... I mean the touchy/feely kind of science. I was going to use the "world was flat" in a responding post myself when someone mentioned science from 300 yrs. ago.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Don't feel bad, Mike. The only person to answer my question is an athiest. What does she know?

Hi elaine. I saw your question, but I know your mind is made up. Love ya'.

 

[dems4me]

Well, this question is not answerable. First, since I am not God, I cannot begin to tell you why God does things the way He does them ....

Vria - yes of course I took science and biology growing up but after all, wasn’t that too penned by man? I just don't see how people can say God is something man created and yet lay soo much stock in scientific analysis and theory. To me that is something that man clearly penned and created more so than the Bible - if X equals Y in scientific analysis... that’s because man made it in theory for X to equal Y. Man also came up with scientific anaysis and reasoning. :shrug: So if the Bible is penned by man and the science and biology facts are penned by man... sometimes you just have to go with your heart.

Eitherway, I think we will have to agree to disagree on whether there is a Christ or not. I just don't see how people can say atoms and molecules were floating around haphazardly all these years and created people... molecules and atoms do still exist in today’s day and age too... correct? Why wouldn't they still be floating around banging into each other and still creating people or half versions of people, mixing ducks with gorilla's, creating things that grow in the water that turn into a walking man eventually, or better yet still have half ape and half man creatures walking around.
Where are these half staged people? Where’s the scientific proof they even existed? More significantly, where are they now in today’s day and age? After all there's still atoms, molecules, lakes and plankton, etc. all around us ?

What is it that makes a man think right from wrong, gives man a set of morals and a form conscientiousness? To me, its just something in your heart. Although still life forms, -- bugs, plants and some other living things don’t have a conscientious - there’s something in the human being that sets us apart from apes and I don’t believe it was a just a fluke, stroke of luck, combination of atoms and molecules slamming around the atmosphere that gave us a heart, also instincts in animals, brains in humans, bodies replete with central nervous systems, emotions, different fingerprints for everyone, different thoughts and ideas, etc I just don't buy into the atom and molecule theory or that we evolved from apes. :shrug:

When its all said and done, I know there's a God and a Jesus, just like I know there are 5 fingers on my hand. I don't sit around contemplating it and recounting and recounting and recounting and further recounting the fingers on my hand to invalidate or contradict what I know to be true , just the same as I don’t sit around trying to negate all the truths of all my generations of my family wrong, millions of other Christians and their families wrong... truth is... I’m just not that darned special or smarter than them and it would be ridiculous to think that I was the “enlightened” one after centuries and centuries of Christian doctrine and Truth that still applies today..:shrug: What I find absolutely amazing is that if you ask the Lord to speak to your heart and open a Bible and start reading -- it talks to my heart - just the same as it did for the Apostles some 2000 years ago and early Christians. After all this time, the Word of the Lord still applies to daily life, in spite of all the changes that has happened all around us over the years.

I strongly and unwaveringly believe in the God of the Bible and that the Word of God is the Bible. This is why we have to agree to disagree on this issue. :shrug: There's nothing that anyone can tell me that will make me distrust my faith in the slightest or give me any reservations to my belief in God. The same for the girl that got killed at Columbine for not denying her Christianity, its something that she just new in her heart to be real and true, I don’t think she was setting out to be a martyr she was just standing by her faith and convictions and what’s truly deep down in her heart and soul. :shrug:

I've seen the glory of God and will continue to choose to walk down that path. Truth is, when its all said and done, and all the facts are laid on the table, from science to Christianity to Buddhism, to Muslim beliefs, to crossbows or pagan shrines, its just something you know and believe in your heart. If you want the Lord in your heart, ask him to enter your
heart :shrug: “ask and He shall enter”

Have a safe a blessed day!

Love ya’
Dems

 

[2ndAmendment]

I put a red block down on the table and everyone in the free world will unanimously say, "Yep, that's a red block on a table."

But if you remove that red block and toss it into a wood chipper or something to remove all physical evidence that that red block ever existed, did it exist? Is there any evidence? There is your testimony and the testimony of any others that saw it. That is what Christian and the rest of the world has. We have the testimony of those that saw Jesus or directly experienced God as Moses and the Jews did in the parting of the Red Sea or the Jordan River.

 

[crabcake]

Very impressive argument but somehow it doesn't seem to hold a great deal of water. It may or may not be true but most people in the world believe Julius Caesar died at the hands of the Senate of the time. It may or may not be true but most people in the world accept the fact that there are atoms, neutrons, protons, and electrons. You can basically take this argument with anything really. If you have faith in this then why not this or that?

Personally speaking, it comes down to what's believable ... common sense. Murder is comprehendable (people do it every day; not saying I condone it or understand why someone does it, but they do it and you see it done); the existence of my brain or atoms ... comprehendable/explainable. You can actually see them, and science's explanation of them makes sense.

But when you try to tell someone "there's this supreme being out there who knows all, sees all, controls all" ... yet there's no physical evidence (as with a brain, an atom ... just what essentially boils down to hearsay), that's not comprehendable/believable to many.

 

[vraiblonde]

Vria - yes of course I took science and biology growing up but after all, wasn’t that too penned by man?

Woof.

No, Dems, science is not "penned" by man - it is studied by man. If you have doubts about science, then why all this talk about reproductive organs and celestial bodies? Why not believe that babies come from the cabbage patch and stars are God's nightlights?

 

[2ndAmendment]

Dems, usually the simple grows into the complex, not the other way around.

Really? Don't maintain your house or car and see how rapidly the complex breaks down into its basic parts.