Immigration Rallies Draw Thousands Nationwide

[Larry Gude]

Why do...

What do you get when you cross a Mexican with an Octopus?

...do octopi make Mexicans angry?

 

[Larry Gude]

You can argue that line...

Care to place bets?

At some point in the future, we may replace drywall hanging - walls may be pre-built and shipped onsite. At the turn of the century, walls used to be covered with plaster over a lattice of wood, and work like that took all day - now it can be hung in minutes.

Driving a truck IS pretty much automating something - I mean, no matter how easy it gets, you still need to pay someone to run the machines.

Leaf-raking? I'll bet within ten years, they'll make a leaf-raking 'bot similar to the ones that vacuum carpets. Ditto some of the hole-digging.

The amazing thing about the tomato harvester is some smart guy figured out that if you couldn't build the machine - you could change the tomato. If you can't automate the process, you can invent something that makes the task obsolete. Hence, self-serve gas and groceries.

...reasoning about anything but I did use the word 'practical'.

No one had any trouble seeing the future of a machine over a man breaking his back doing a mindless task; picking cotton.

We may well replace drywall with some sort of prefab. It already exists for remodeling BUT someone STILL needs to assemble the prefinished wall section, no matter what it is. It will have to be handled, either with machines or the people who maintain and operate them. There is a human task and decision at every step.

Automating driving, turning an 80,000 pound machine loose on the existing road system, is unthinkable for the near future, long after current immigrants grandchildren are establishing themselves. Even when that becomes automated, there are still human jobs and decisions at every step.

The stereotypical illegal is a landscaper; tough, hot manual labor. With a man behind a machine; leaf blower, lawn mower, trimmer, clippers and so on.

Illegals aren't running around scrubbing floors with toothbrushes.

Automation will continue and succeed, everywhere it is practical. didn't you see Charlie and the Chocolate factory?

 

[vraiblonde]

Another scenario that makes my case for abolishing income tax and going with a straight sales tax: currently, illegals do not contribute to our tax pot. If they had to pay more sales tax for their purchases, they would be.

 

[Bustem' Down]

...do octopi make Mexicans angry?

Why?

 

[SamSpade]

Why?

pssst! I think you missed the idea of making a Mexican 'cross'......(angry)

 

[Bruzilla]

Another scenario that makes my case for abolishing income tax and going with a straight sales tax: currently, illegals do not contribute to our tax pot. If they had to pay more sales tax for their purchases, they would be.

Ah, yes they do contribute through employer withholding. Their problem is that since most of them use phony names, DLs, or SSNs they can't file tax returns so the money that is withheld is retained by the US Government, which is a bonus for us. The employers also pay into unemployment insurance, workman's comp, etc. funds based on these employees but they cannot file claims due to their invalid status, which is another windfall for the government. This is the big issue with making these folks legal as they will then receive back 100% of the money they are now putting into the tax pot but not getting out, but will also be eligible for earned income and child care tax credits that nets them money they didn't put in, i.e., money that you and I put in.

 

[Bruzilla]

...that before the civil war, the end was in sight for all to see; mechanization was coming, slavery was dying. One of the things many Southerners were upset about was that they were born wrapped in a blanket made by Yankees, were buried with a shovel made by Yankees with a headstone made by Yankees; IE, slavery was retarding the industrial growth of the South.

Contrast that with now; you are NOT going to mechanize block building, drywall hanging, leaf racking, poinsettia growing, truck driving and all the other services that, while very automated and mechanized, are pretty much down to the humans now employed are the ones necessary. There is no machine that can properly lean on a shovel.

Point taken but there is a practical limit to automation.

How do you automate cleaning a hotel room? Also, the one constant about machinery is they break, frequently, especially highly complex machines. And when they break they are always expensive to repair, which trashes the bottom line. Cheap labor is quick and easy to fix when it breaks... you hire new people.

 

[vraiblonde]

Ah, yes they do contribute through employer withholding.

It's my understanding that most illegals are paid under the table, therefore do not participate in employer withholding.

Their problem is that since most of them use phony names, DLs, or SSNs they can't file tax returns so the money that is withheld is retained by the US Government, which is a bonus for us.

Now I'm scared because you are obviously starting to lose your mind. Are you seriously saying that we should keep foreign citizens in this country who are operating with fake identities?????

Seriously?????

This is the big issue with making these folks legal as they will then receive back 100% of the money they are now putting into the tax pot

BRUZILLA! If they put that money in under an assumed name and forged identity, HOW THE HELL WILL THEY GET IT BACK?????

 

[vraiblonde]

How do you automate cleaning a hotel room?

Easy. You cut welfare and other entitlements, and suddenly you have a whole plethora of unskilled workers. Automatic cleaning crews.

 

[SamSpade]

Actually most illegals that are 'paying taxes' claim enough exemptions so as not to pay any. The only loss of wage is in the payroll tax.

The EIC is huge; I just worked a season as a tax preparer. Just from my own experience, I'd say the vast bulk of all of our returns came through EIC payouts. For every return I made for a person making 75K+, there were a half dozen EIC returns with two to three times the refunds.

 

[Larry Gude]

I thought you knew...

Why?

...you asked what happens when you cross one with one...

 

[Larry Gude]

Why...

How do you automate cleaning a hotel room? Also, the one constant about machinery is they break, frequently, especially highly complex machines. And when they break they are always expensive to repair, which trashes the bottom line. Cheap labor is quick and easy to fix when it breaks... you hire new people.

...are you asking me? We're on the same page...

 

[Bustem' Down]

...you asked what happens when you cross one with one...

I'm a little slow today.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's true...

Ah, yes they do contribute through employer withholding. Their problem is that since most of them use phony names, DLs, or SSNs they can't file tax returns so the money that is withheld is retained by the US Government, which is a bonus for us. The employers also pay into unemployment insurance, workman's comp, etc. funds based on these employees but they cannot file claims due to their invalid status, which is another windfall for the government. This is the big issue with making these folks legal as they will then receive back 100% of the money they are now putting into the tax pot but not getting out, but will also be eligible for earned income and child care tax credits that nets them money they didn't put in, i.e., money that you and I put in.

...but there is a large percentage getting paid the PROPER way; Cash money.

 

[Larry Gude]

See...

Another scenario that makes my case for abolishing income tax and going with a straight sales tax: currently, illegals do not contribute to our tax pot. If they had to pay more sales tax for their purchases, they would be.

...that's the dirty underbelly of all this; how people pay taxes.

A straight sales tax of some 20- 25% necessary to replace current witholding and payroll taxes (which will create a huge black market) allows people to choose how much tax they pay. The government don't want you having no choice.

Right now, there is, as Bruz pointed out, a good many dollars coming in associated with names and numbers that will never collect. No one wants to give that up.

 

[SAHRAB]

Misguided notions.

Lets ignore your BS about Canada for a minute.

Your Post about Illegals (THATS PEOPLE THAT BREAK OUR LAWS) makes no sense.

Illegal workers will do the crapiest jobs for the lowest pay - Do you honestly believe once they are granted any kind of "Citizenship" (ie guest worker etc) they'll continue to stay at the low paying job? One of the reasons they continue to do the work, Under the Table, is the fact that they are ILLEGAL and can be paid lower wages. Once you foist "Citizenship" rights on them, they will then be able to leave the lower waged job. Then the owners will have to increase wages to keep workers, which in turn raises the cost of the item

they'll not bring lawsuits for every slight of their employers - and your mistaken if you think they wont, after you assign them some type of legality

they'll not file for excess taxes or SS benefits even though they put money into the system through payroll withholding - If they are paid under the table (as most ILLEGALS are) they are not paying into the Taxes or Social Security now. because they are ILLEGAL

All of these outcomes screw over the illegal employee, but greatly benefit the US as a whole - Its kinda hard to feel bad for someone who is in this country ILLEGALY (since they broke our Laws to get here). if they followed our Laws and the Systems we had in place, they wouldnt be in the position to be "Screwed". .

We get lower prices for goods and services and increased tax and SS revenues. For example, do you really think that US consumers are willing to pay $5 for a head of lettuce grown in the US by legal workers, or would they prefer to pay $1 for a head imported from Brazil? It's the use of illegal workers that allow the CA lettuce grower to compete with foreign growers. - Under any kind of "Citizenship" scenario, our Goods and Services will go up. since they will be paid higher, due to now being under the protection of labor laws, the seller isnt going to absorb that cost, he will pass it onto the consumer, (basic economics)

We ##### about businesses leaving the US, but the banning of illegal workers would bankrupt much of the US agricultural industry and force us to rely on foreign produce. - Unless your arguing to keep the Illegal Problem status Quo; then any kind of "Citizenship" scheme will cause more businesses to outsource, and we will rely on foreign (cheaper) produce. Once again, unless your arguing to keep the ILLEGAL Workers ILLEGAL, then your ... "scenario" will play out the EXACT same no matter if its Now "Legal" ILLEGALS or high shcool kids doing the work. SINCE THEY WILL FALL UNDER THE SAME LABOR PROTECTIONS

Is that outcome worth the benefits of stopping illegal immigrant workers? - Your solution is to do nothing?

There are other problems with ILLEGALS (LAW BREAKING):

• Voting Rights - A large Chunk (and their Advocates) feel they are owed Represenation
• Social Services - Since they dont pay into the System why should they have access to it (welfare, healthcare etc)
• Education - Should they or their children be allowed to attend our schools? who should pay for that? (us of course, since they dont pay into the system)
• Drivers Licenses - this blows my mind, if they are here ILLEGALLY (Broken our laws) why should they be granted?

Lastly, enough with the Chicken Little crys of terrorist armies coming up through Mexico. There have been more Islamic extremists coming in through Canada than Mexico; there's little stopping a terrorist with even a modicrum of ingenuity from getting through US Immigration at any US airport or seaport; and absolutely nothing stopping them from coming ashore at any vacant spot on the shoreline. The only way you're going to stop terrorists is to bag them before they leave for the US - So you agree with Bushes policy of Preemption?

 

[SamSpade]

...that's the dirty underbelly of all this; how people pay taxes.

A straight sales tax of some 20- 25% necessary to replace current witholding and payroll taxes (which will create a huge black market) allows people to choose how much tax they pay. The government don't want you having no choice.

Right now, there is, as Bruz pointed out, a good many dollars coming in associated with names and numbers that will never collect. No one wants to give that up.

Hardly. As I've already noted, most of those who do pay taxes claim enough exemptions so as not to pay any - or pay very little. When it comes to total revenue from taxpayer's incomes - what all of these guys contribute is chump change - if they pay anything at all. This is borne out by stats, and from my personal experience preparing taxes, I was astounded at how many people bring in W-2's and did not pay ANY Federal or State Taxes. And because of the EIC, they got bigger refunds than I've ever received.

How did this country EVER get by without hordes of undocumented, non-tax paying rabble to do all the "dirty" work? Ooops, my bad - WE did it.

 

[Vince]

Heard the Immigration Reform Bill passed on a 12-6 vote.

 

[Larry Gude]

I guess we see this different...

Hardly. As I've already noted, most of those who do pay taxes claim enough exemptions so as not to pay any - or pay very little. When it comes to total revenue from taxpayer's incomes - what all of these guys contribute is chump change - if they pay anything at all. This is borne out by stats, and from my personal experience preparing taxes, I was astounded at how many people bring in W-2's and did not pay ANY Federal or State Taxes. And because of the EIC, they got bigger refunds than I've ever received.

How did this country EVER get by without hordes of undocumented, non-tax paying rabble to do all the "dirty" work? Ooops, my bad - WE did it.

If you get a paycheck, you've got 15% SS/Med witheld plus SUTA and FUTA (which aren't much) regardless of how many deductions you claim. If your name is bogus and your SS is bogus, these monies don't come back to you.

We've never got by without hoards of immigrants. My people got here in 1850 and I doubt there was much in the way of documents. Some earlier. How about yours? We're a nation of immigrants both documented and not.

 

[2ndAmendment]

If you get a paycheck, you've got 15% SS/Med witheld plus SUTA and FUTA (which aren't much) regardless of how many deductions you claim. If your name is bogus and your SS is bogus, these monies don't come back to you.

We've never got by without hoards of immigrants. My people got here in 1850 and I doubt there was much in the way of documents. Some earlier. How about yours? We're a nation of immigrants both documented and not.

Immigrants? Yes. Illegal immigrants? No. Larry, you and Bru are so off base on this. I think it must be that you both have a "dog in the fight". Anyone checking green cards at your places?

Doing away with illegal immigration goes or should go hand in hand with cutting back and eliminating most if not all welfare. Baby mama can clean the motel room instead of watching TV and munching on Oreos.