Is America heading for theocracy?

[glhs837]

In NOT doing so I would be failing my God.

I choose God.

Then choose not to do a job that requires you to do things that interfere with your choice. Resign. Or ask to move somewhere where you wont be forced to not do your job.

 

[Amused_despair]

How did she force them by not doing anything? They couldn't go to the next town to get married? You mean someone was forcing themselves to get married in her town of 6,000 people to get married? Kentucky has home rule which means they don't want outsiders forcing their beliefs on them.

Amazing how you can comment on stuff without having a clue what the subject is. Town? No, she is the clerk for the county. She is paid, it is her JOB to issue marriage certificates, she gets paid a very good wage for that area for this job. She is refusing to do her job. As for "home rule" Kentucky is still part of the USA, it is responsible for the laws of this land. You may not want to follow the Constitution on the United Sates as it is interpreted by the Supreme Court, but if you are paid to do a job you should do the job, to do otherwise is stealing....I thought that was a sin also, or is it one of the many you seem to be OK with?

 

[Chuckt]

but if you are paid to do a job you should do the job, to do otherwise is stealing....I thought that was a sin also, or is it one of the many you seem to be OK with?

She's doing her job. She is putting her time in.

It is the same way with labor unions. They have representation and you can't fire them as long as they go through the motions of their jobs.

 

[Chuckt]

Then choose not to do a job that requires you to do things that interfere with your choice. Resign. Or ask to move somewhere where you wont be forced to not do your job.

She lives somewhere that she is allowed to do her job.

 

[Chuckt]

And in doing so, you would fail to carry out your duty as a government official, willfully break the law, and subjugate your fellow citizens to a status beneath your own. All in the name of your god.

I heard she is allegedly in a oneness pentecostal cult which does not accept the trinity.

They believe in a different kind of God which is monotheism with modalism.

 

[glhs837]

She lives somewhere that she is allowed to do her job.

No, she need to live in a place that hasn't made gay marriage legal. Of course, she might have to move every few years.

 

[seekeroftruth]

Then choose not to do a job that requires you to do things that interfere with your choice. Resign. Or ask to move somewhere where you wont be forced to not do your job.

See here's the problem...It's not the law that allows for gay marriage... it's the interpretation of the law.

When she was voted into office.... the interpretation was in alignment with her core values [and mine]. Then the court changed the interpretation to fit their view. So... because the court changes the interpretation.... she should step down, leaving her constituents to select someone whom they did not choose?

Let me ask you how you would handle this.... what would you do in this circumstance?

A woman comes home unexpectedly and finds her husband [and father of her three children] in bed with another man. Should the woman stay in the marriage [after all marriage is forever] or should she go..... and what should be done about three little children involved? These things happen to people all the time.... That's why I say.... I choose God.

 

[glhs837]

See here's the problem...It's not the law that allows for gay marriage... it's the interpretation of the law.

When she was voted into office.... the interpretation was in alignment with her core values [and mine]. Then the court changed the interpretation to fit their view. So... because the court changes the interpretation.... she should step down, leaving her constituents to select someone whom they did not choose?

Let me ask you how you would handle this.... what would you do in this circumstance?

A woman comes home unexpectedly and finds her husband [and father of her three children] in bed with another man. Should the woman stay in the marriage [after all marriage is forever] or should she go..... and what should be done about three little children involved? These things happen to people all the time.... That's why I say.... I choose God.

Yep, they sure do. And people have to make hard choices all the time. With and without God. If you cannot in good conscience do the job you were hired to do, you have to make that choice. Do it or do not. And by do not, I don't mean just stay there but don't do it. That's like staying with a cheating spouse but never sleeping with them again. If something outside your control changes the terms of the deal, then it's time to decide.

 

[Chuckt]

No, she need to live in a place that hasn't made gay marriage legal. Of course, she might have to move every few years.

I think the court didn't want to get involved because they knew there would be challenges after challenges wasting their time which is why there was some judicial activism from the bench.

 

[seekeroftruth]

Yep, they sure do. And people have to make hard choices all the time. With and without God. If you cannot in good conscience do the job you were hired to do, you have to make that choice. Do it or do not. And by do not, I don't mean just stay there but don't do it. That's like staying with a cheating spouse but never sleeping with them again. If something outside your control changes the terms of the deal, then it's time to decide.

When are we supposed to make a stand for God? When it's convenient for humans or all the time?

If we claim to be Christians.... or children of God.... shouldn't we be basing life decisions on what God would have us do?

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."​

And what about Genesis 40:8 We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."​

We have to stand for something in life. If everyone just quits when it's inconvenient, what kind of example is that?

What if it's her calling to do the right thing in spite of the consequences? Jonah didn't want to do what God called him to do.... and he went through an awful ordeal....

It's easy to just tell someone to quit.... but quitting is not the right thing to do sometimes....

 

[Amused_despair]

When are we supposed to make a stand for God? When it's convenient for humans or all the time?

If we claim to be Christians.... or children of God.... shouldn't we be basing life decisions on what God would have us do?

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."​

And what about Genesis 40:8 We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."​

We have to stand for something in life. If everyone just quits when it's inconvenient, what kind of example is that?

What if it's her calling to do the right thing in spite of the consequences? Jonah didn't want to do what God called him to do.... and he went through an awful ordeal....

It's easy to just tell someone to quit.... but quitting is not the right thing to do sometimes....

If she wants to live in a country where the laws are based on religious text, then perhaps she should consider Iran or the areas controlled by ISIS. This country has never been a country governed by any religion. Any country that has allowed itself to be ruled by religion has always worked out so well, it is a great role-model to follow.

 

[glhs837]

When are we supposed to make a stand for God? When it's convenient for humans or all the time?

If we claim to be Christians.... or children of God.... shouldn't we be basing life decisions on what God would have us do?

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."​

And what about Genesis 40:8 We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."​

We have to stand for something in life. If everyone just quits when it's inconvenient, what kind of example is that?

What if it's her calling to do the right thing in spite of the consequences? Jonah didn't want to do what God called him to do.... and he went through an awful ordeal....

It's easy to just tell someone to quit.... but quitting is not the right thing to do sometimes....

Resigning is not the same as quitting. Effectively it is, but morally not. And it seems the complaint is the consequences. Folks want it both ways, and that's not how it works, that's not how any of this works. If your beliefs conflict with your job, and you refuse to do it, or let someone else do it when you won't, you can expect the folks whose job it is to uphold the law to intervene. Folks seem to think she should be allowed to dictate her interpretation of of the law without repercussion. She was not eleccted as a judge, was she? Her job it not to interpret, is it? Just hand out the papers as the folks whose job it is to interpret the law tell you to. Get a law degree, get elected judge, and then you can interpret all you want. Form a group to change the law. That's how this works, that's how ALL of this works. And has for a long time. Otherwise, this conversation belongs here in this theocracy thread.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

When are we supposed to make a stand for God? When it's convenient for humans or all the time?

Should you make a stand for your god even when it comes at the expense of others, essentially denying them rights that you yourself have?

What if it's her calling to do the right thing in spite of the consequences?

Herein lies the problem. Often the right thing, when it comes to religious-driven behavior by Christians and Muslims alike, involves oppression of their fellow human beings.

 

[Amused_despair]

The sad thing is that if this clerk has her way and can let her religious beliefs dictate how she performs her government duties for all citizens, it opens up a can of worms for all of us. How long until Muslims are insisting on Sharia laws for them and anyone who interacts with them? How long until vegans won't issue hunting licenses? Roman Catholics won't sell condoms?

 

[ProximaCentauri]

The sad thing is that if this clerk has her way and can let her religious beliefs dictate how she performs her government duties for all citizens, it opens up a can of worms for all of us. How long until Muslims are insisting on Sharia laws for them and anyone who interacts with them? How long until vegans won't issue hunting licenses? Roman Catholics won't sell condoms?

Polls are showing the majority of Americans do not support her behavior so she unwittingly provides one more example of the intolerance of Christians convinced their actions are 'right'. The problem is, they worship an intolerant god.

 

[cheezgrits]

chuckt, I'm not replying or conversing with you, you aren't making reasonable replies to my post.

She didn't force anyone to believe as she does, she used her government position (elected county clerk) to force (through refusal to issue licenses and through media attention) her religious beliefs (gay marriage is wrong) after a court (the Supreme Court) had ruled gay marriage is constitutionally permissible and a right for all. Civil marriage. No one is saying she has to allow them to get married in her church.

If an atheist clerk refused to issue a parade permit for a church group, y'all would be losing your minds.

Seeker/HC, I admire and respect your stance to choose to side with your God, but I must say, if you had a job that suddenly changed it's requirements to something that went against your morals, then I'd expect you to respect the law of the land you live in and step down and use your time and resources to try to change that law/issue that you find wrong.

 

[cheezgrits]

How did she force them by not doing anything? They couldn't go to the next town to get married? You mean someone was forcing themselves to get married in her town of 6,000 people to get married? You mean to tell me it was easier for them to pay a lawyer than to go somewhere else to get married? There are a lot of times I am inconvenienced but I don't fork out thousands of dollars to sue.

And you have to pay for health care or you pay a penalty which is a tax. Who is forcing you to pay?
It is okay if you are at the top enforcing but not okay if you are at the bottom? Health care laws benefit the rich because they are making you pay so they don't feel it when they have to help cover your costs.

There is a couple flying from San Francisco to get married in Kentucky to make a statement. Who is enforcing their beliefs on others? Aren't the thousands of activists calling up and screaming forcing their beliefs on others? Kentucky has home rule which means they don't want outsiders forcing their beliefs on them.

Dude, get an informed, educated and well researched response and get back to me.

 

[Chuckt]

Dude, get an informed, educated and well researched response and get back to me.

The burden of proof is on you.

 

[Chuckt]

Polls are showing the majority of Americans do not support her behavior so she unwittingly provides one more example of the intolerance of Christians convinced their actions are 'right'. The problem is, they worship an intolerant god.

75% of voters in Kentucky favor marriage between a man and a woman so what polls are you talking about? And should she disobey the law when her forms that she has to fill out say that marriage is between a man and a woman? Should we ignore the will of the people in Kentucky when 75% of voters say that marriage is between a man and a woman? Should we deny voters representation by putting their public servants in jail?

Would you have favored Abraham Lincoln obeying the 1857 Dred Scott decision? After all, religious nutcases disobey the law.

http://www.ushistory.org/us/32a.asp

You are basically surrendering to judicial tyranny which is what Jefferson spoke about.

 

[seekeroftruth]

chuckt, I'm not replying or conversing with you, you aren't making reasonable replies to my post.

She didn't force anyone to believe as she does, she used her government position (elected county clerk) to force (through refusal to issue licenses and through media attention) her religious beliefs (gay marriage is wrong) after a court (the Supreme Court) had ruled gay marriage is constitutionally permissible and a right for all. Civil marriage. No one is saying she has to allow them to get married in her church.

If an atheist clerk refused to issue a parade permit for a church group, y'all would be losing your minds.

Seeker/HC, I admire and respect your stance to choose to side with your God, but I must say, if you had a job that suddenly changed it's requirements to something that went against your morals, then I'd expect you to respect the law of the land you live in and step down and use your time and resources to try to change that law/issue that you find wrong.

Cheezegrits.... you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

I don't much care what humans think of me. It's God who's the ultimate judge.

See, when you believe that you will have eternal life.... as I do.... then it adds a different perspective to life. Eternity is a long, long, long, long time.

IMHO When you believe in the God of Noah or Lot.... you have to have a LOT of courage and stand up for what's right.

When you believe in a God who can topple idols.... check out Jeremiah 44. It's serious stuff that happens.