Is Jesus a black man?

[tommyjones]

I don't subscribe to the "Adam and Eve" concept that they were the first originally created being and everyone is a result of that. I'm quite sure God doesn't talk about a lot of things, but do these things really put in question the validity of God? Does this really change the intent of the real message of the bible?



God does leave certain things for us to interpret in the bible. This, once again, does not minimize the overall message of salvation. I think that message is pretty cut and dry. And if my interpretation of the Adam and Eve story is wrong this certain wont determine whether I get saved or not. I think God would simply say I was wrong. The Word of God is still the word of God regardless of whether my interpretation is wrong or not. If ten people witness an accident on the highway, you might get ten different stories at to how it happened. Because 8 out of the 10 got it wrong doesn't mean the accident didn't happen.

But if these "inconsistencies put doubt in your mind then that is your interpretation of things and God certainly gave your the free will to make that decision.

which indicates to me that you fall more on the fable side than the literal truth side, and thats fine, and seems much more logical to me. As i said, if all or part of the bible is taken as fable then any inconsistancies dont really matter, its a story where the moral is the important part.

 

[This_person]

nowhere does the bible say that cains wife was one of these people you claim were created at the same time as eve, but outside the garden. that is only what you infer

These are the unimportant details of which I speak. It doesn't say what the temperature was either, does that mean it was temperatureless? It doesn't say how tall anyone was either, does that mean they have no height?

With any story, the author takes a certain amount of intelligence into account regarding the reader. I may be wrong about whether this was a separate creation, and you may be wrong about it being an unnamed, unaccounted for, non-mentioned sibling of Cain that became his wife (even though every other incest story is clearly delineated as such), but a wife existed, and I've given numerous clues as to why I think my reading may be accurate. The extent of your argument has been "that's not what I was taught". One of us is able to read objectively with an open mind, and one of us goes clearly on ONLY what he's told. Perhaps you can figure out through context clues which one I think is which.

now back to ignore....

That's probably best. When you can't have an adult discussion with someone, and you can't berate them into agreeing with you, it's best to walk away and limit your losses.

 

[This_person]

which indicates to me that you fall more on the fable side than the literal truth side, and thats fine, and seems much more logical to me. As i said, if all or part of the bible is taken as fable then any inconsistancies dont really matter, its a story where the moral is the important part.

The story doesn't necessarily become a fable, or fairy tale, just because you can't figure out a detail or two.

The moral comes through because of what actually happened. Dissecting each detail is not how you get to what actually happened.

 

[TimAllen]

These are the unimportant details of which I speak. It doesn't say what the temperature was either, does that mean it was temperatureless? It doesn't say how tall anyone was either, does that mean they have no height?

With any story, the author takes a certain amount of intelligence into account regarding the reader. I may be wrong about whether this was a separate creation, and you may be wrong about it being an unnamed, unaccounted for, non-mentioned sibling of Cain that became his wife (even though every other incest story is clearly delineated as such), but a wife existed, and I've given numerous clues as to why I think my reading may be accurate. The extent of your argument has been "that's not what I was taught". One of us is able to read objectively with an open mind, and one of us goes clearly on ONLY what he's told. Perhaps you can figure out through context clues which one I think is which.
That's probably best. When you can't have an adult discussion with someone, and you can't berate them into agreeing with you, it's best to walk away and limit your losses.

May I ask what type of church you attend? Pentecostal, Church of God, Baptist. I am jsut curious.

 

[This_person]

May I ask what type of church you attend? Pentecostal, Church of God, Baptist. I am jsut curious.

Sure, but let me ask why you're curious first.

 

[TimAllen]

Sure, but let me ask why you're curious first.

Just curious as to how you are or have been taught is all.

 

[PsyOps]

which indicates to me that you fall more on the fable side than the literal truth side, and thats fine, and seems much more logical to me. As i said, if all or part of the bible is taken as fable then any inconsistancies dont really matter, its a story where the moral is the important part.

There is no fable to the fact that God created this universe we enjoy. I believe this is the truth. As to the details of how God actually did it, well there's just not enough detail in the Bible for me to conclude one way or the other. Could God have done it in 7 days (a day as we live it and know it)? Yes. Did he? I really don't know, but I tend to think not. It's quite obvious God set certain things in motion and the rest happens naturally according the rules of nature God set. God trying to explain to us the details of His creation is like a parent trying to explain to their 3 year old where babies come from. You don't really give all the details; you give a story of some sort. Why? Because you know that 1) none of it will make any sense anyway and 2) there are certain details you may not want your child to know. Perhaps this was God's intent as well.

 

[TimAllen]

There is no fable to the fact that God created this universe we enjoy. I believe this is the truth. As to the details of how God actually did it, well there's just not enough detail in the Bible for me to conclude one way or the other. Could God have done it in 7 days (a day as we live it and know it)? Yes. Did he? I really don't know, but I tend to think not. It's quite obvious God set certain things in motion and the rest happens naturally according the rules of nature God set. God trying to explain to us the details of His creation is like a parent trying to explain to their 3 year old where babies come from. You don't really give all the details; you give a story of some sort. Why? Because you know that 1) none of it will make any sense anyway and 2) there are certain details you may not want your child to know. Perhaps this was God's intent as well.

Read below, it tells you what God did in the first seven days. It even says that on the seventh day God looked around said Its all good, and took a break.

Genesis 1 >>
King James Bible

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1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2 >>
King James Bible

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1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[Marie]

I am a stickler on the 6 literal days. I had a preacher once tell me he didnt believe that and I latter found out he didnt belive other things in the Bible.
Needless to say I no longer sit under his tutelage on Suday morning!
One is because thats what Gods word says.
It says it plainely, with clues like Morning and evening so we can understand.He also gives us this veres.
<DIR>Gen 1:4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
</DIR>The hebrew word used is

H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next.
Its not being used as an adverb!
In Aramaic translated from the Pe####ta, its translated day as well.
End even if you use poor judgement and latch onto
<DIR>2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

It only buys you 6000 extra years! Genesis is the foundation of scripture, if you poke holes in it or dont believe all of it, then you dont have a strong foundation to support the rest of Gods word!
Why would God miss lead us? Why would you want to take this any other way than litteral other than to chip away at the foundation of Gods word?


</DIR>

 

[This_person]

Just curious as to how you are or have been taught is all.

I was baptised Lutheran, and went through Bible Study with Free Methodists, and I do my own reading now.

 

[PsyOps]

Read below, it tells you what God did in the first seven days. It even says that on the seventh day God looked around said Its all good, and took a break.

Forgive me for sounding snide but we've been debating this for several days now. I have read this chapter more than you will know, so...

What's your point?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I respectfully disagree. It's quite clear that Adam was there before the plants and before the animals, and Eve came after all of that. God made man (in Adam) clearly and specifically stated before plants and animals.

Gen 2:4 says that Chapter 2 is about the whole thing, again. But this time, there's a different emphasis. This time, the emphasis isn't a time line, but a relationship between God and man.

I usually have deference to your opinion over mine on Bible readings, but I don't see how it can be taken differently. It's quite plainly written when Adam was created - BEFORE plants.

Well we will have to disagree. It is very plain that Adam and Eve were created on the same day. So Adam is older than Eve by a few hours. So what?

 

[This_person]

Well we will have to disagree. It is very plain that Adam and Eve were created on the same day. So Adam is older than Eve by a few hours. So what?

I agree that we have to disagree.

Because Gen 2:4-7 describes Adam as being created on Day 2, and Gen 2:19-23 describes Eve as being created on Day 6, I just can't see them as having been created on the same day.

Their relative difference in age was not the point. This was all about a discussion with TJ regarding where Cain's wife came from. I suggested that virtually all other acts of incest were labeled as such (Lot with his daughters, etc.), so I didn't buy that incest theory. I'd not read anywhere else where someone's mother, or sister, or cousin, or whatever, were only described as that person's wife. So, I suggested that Cain's wife was not a relative in that manner, that there was probably another creation - because there is no reason by context clues to say this is a relative. He asked for proof (of course), so I noticed that Adam is described as being created before plants and such, and Gen 1:26 shows mankind being created days later, and being created male and female. This suggests that it is possible for God to have created more than just two humans from which mankind comes. That the reason Adam was mentioned specifically is because Adam was the first, and because Adam's lineage is where we all come from via Noah. That it's at least one possible option, from the specific wording of the scripture, to say that God created more than just Adam and Eve, and that it was a relatively unimportant detail because it is not crucial to understanding the story to understand that He could have created more than just two humans. I'm not saying it absolutely has to be that way, just that the specific wording allows that as a possibility, and doesn't diminish the story one iota.

That's all.

 

[TimAllen]

I agree that we have to disagree.

Because Gen 2:4-7 describes Adam as being created on Day 2, and Gen 2:19-23 describes Eve as being created on Day 6, I just can't see them as having been created on the same day.

Their relative difference in age was not the point. This was all about a discussion with TJ regarding where Cain's wife came from. I suggested that virtually all other acts of incest were labeled as such (Lot with his daughters, etc.), so I didn't buy that incest theory. I'd not read anywhere else where someone's mother, or sister, or cousin, or whatever, were only described as that person's wife. So, I suggested that Cain's wife was not a relative in that manner, that there was probably another creation - because there is no reason by context clues to say this is a relative. He asked for proof (of course), so I noticed that Adam is described as being created before plants and such, and Gen 1:26 shows mankind being created days later, and being created male and female. This suggests that it is possible for God to have created more than just two humans from which mankind comes. That the reason Adam was mentioned specifically is because Adam was the first, and because Adam's lineage is where we all come from via Noah. That it's at least one possible option, from the specific wording of the scripture, to say that God created more than just Adam and Eve, and that it was a relatively unimportant detail because it is not crucial to understanding the story to understand that He could have created more than just two humans. I'm not saying it absolutely has to be that way, just that the specific wording allows that as a possibility, and doesn't diminish the story one iota.

That's all.

There was no incest until the book of leviticus... Read it the whole book I mean and not just verses. God only created 2 HUMANS, ADAM and EVE. No where in the Bible or in Genesis does it say God created Adam, and Bill and then He Created Eve and Jill....IF you read the Bible and then say hmmm how why when...then you have no faith.

 

[TimAllen]

Forgive me for sounding snide but we've been debating this for several days now. I have read this chapter more than you will know, so...

What's your point?

Apparently you have not read it enough if you still have questions! That is my point.

 

[TimAllen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by This_person
I respectfully disagree. It's quite clear that Adam was there before the plants and before the animals, and Eve came after all of that. God made man (in Adam) clearly and specifically stated before plants and animals.

Gen 2:4 says that Chapter 2 is about the whole thing, again. But this time, there's a different emphasis. This time, the emphasis isn't a time line, but a relationship between God and man.

I usually have deference to your opinion over mine on Bible readings, but I don't see how it can be taken differently. It's quite plainly written when Adam was created - BEFORE plants.


You are right man was created before the plants,, God even said that none of the plants started growing because he didnt water them yet... Didnt get watered till he made Adam on the 6th day..

 

[PsyOps]

Apparently you have not read it enough if you still have questions! That is my point.

Okay chief, tell me how God went into detail about the process of creating man. I don't mean "from the dust of the earth", I mean at the DNA level. Exactly what was His process? Did he go into detail about how he put all the plants and other animals on earth? No, the Bible just says God created them. It doesn't say how. I realize God can will things into existence, but this leaves so many unanswered questions. I believe God gave us minds to seek these answers. And that's what I do. I don't just sit and read passages from the Bible and just leave it at that. I ask questions, I seek answers.

I've read Genesis enough to understand God did it. I believe this with all my heart. It doesn't go into the detail that so many would like to know; including myself. But my questions are not in the line of doubt; my questions are in reference to curiosity.

 

[TimAllen]

Okay chief, tell me how God went into detail about the process of creating man. I don't mean "from the dust of the earth", I mean at the DNA level. Exactly what was His process? Did he go into detail about how he put all the plants and other animals on earth? No, the Bible just says God created them. It doesn't say how. I realize God can will things into existence, but this leaves so many unanswered questions. I believe God gave us minds to seek these answers. And that's what I do. I don't just sit and read passages from the Bible and just leave it at that. I ask questions, I seek answers.

I've read Genesis enough to understand God did it. I believe this with all my heart. It doesn't go into the detail that so many would like to know; including myself. But my questions are not in the line of doubt; my questions are in reference to curiosity.

Ok I gotcha there, but it also says in the Bible that we are not supposed to know everything, If we knew everything there is to know then we would be on the same level as God. God said in the Bible that there are things that we will not know until we get to heaven, and then all of our questions will be answered, until then we just have to take everything in the Bible as it is...God's Word, we are not supposed to read more into than there is, or try to read between the lines. Trust I have questions too, and everybody believes differently. At the DNA level of I ahve no clue, I just know that is the way it is.

 

[This_person]

There was no incest until the book of leviticus... Read it the whole book I mean and not just verses. God only created 2 HUMANS, ADAM and EVE. No where in the Bible or in Genesis does it say God created Adam, and Bill and then He Created Eve and Jill....IF you read the Bible and then say hmmm how why when...then you have no faith.

Ok I gotcha there, but it also says in the Bible that we are not supposed to know everything, If we knew everything there is to know then we would be on the same level as God. God said in the Bible that there are things that we will not know until we get to heaven, and then all of our questions will be answered, until then we just have to take everything in the Bible as it is...God's Word, we are not supposed to read more into than there is, or try to read between the lines

As you say, it's not complete. It neither does, nor needs to, say everything. Some things are just so clearly obvious as to not need to be said specifically.

Realize, as you are critical of my reading, I am of yours. You specifically believe that Cain married a sister, yet it does not say anything about a sister before Seth's younger siblings - yet Cain was married before Seth was born.

That's okay, we can read it differently. I can read the words, and take my meaning from what's written. You can read the words, and take your meaning from what's not written. It's okay. God reveals to us each as we need to get it.

 

[PsyOps]

Ok I gotcha there, but it also says in the Bible that we are not supposed to know everything, If we knew everything there is to know then we would be on the same level as God. God said in the Bible that there are things that we will not know until we get to heaven, and then all of our questions will be answered, until then we just have to take everything in the Bible as it is...God's Word, we are not supposed to read more into than there is, or try to read between the lines. Trust I have questions too, and everybody believes differently. At the DNA level of I ahve no clue, I just know that is the way it is.

I don’t think we can know everything. That’s not my point in seeking knowledge. There’s a certain satisfaction in learning something new. But it’s obvious God left some things a mystery.

Taking the Bible “as is” is not the same thing to everyone. How you interpret certain parts may not be the same as someone else. The creation story is one of those parts that God left wide open to interpretation. I think it’s fair to believe God could have created this universe in 7 days; 7 days as we know it. But I think it’s equally fair to ask the question “what is 7 days to God who lives in infinite terms”. Nothing is impossible with God. But God didn’t make the spinning of nature to fool us. The nature that we live in progresses much slower than the literal meaning of 7 days. That’s why I tend to believe the 7 days is not a literal 7 days but a span of time. If you read Genesis 1 the earth was already here before the 1st day. Why didn’t God go into a little more detail about how the earth got here? What was his process for creating the earth and the universe? Why did He choose to leave this out? God created humans and animals out of dirt, but it’s pretty obvious we are made up of more than just plain old dirt. What was the process? Was there a longer period of time that resulted in our existence? I tend to think so. Does this mean I doubt God’s existence, power and authority? Absolutely not! So, for me, there is no “as is”.