Jesus was the Sun, Not the Son of God

[Xaquin44]

So your saying that you dont believe that man and Dinosaurs coexsisted?
We have scriptural evidence that they did.

BAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

[wxtornado]

Hello Jayne, (if you are really Jayne. Lots of MPD's here lately). I know you won't like this but the burden of proof is on you to prove that God doesn't exist ......

Wrong, again.


Jayne doesn't have to, since she is not the one that is claiming that something exists. She already has the default position. And since you have never presented any objective evidence and proof that your deity exists, the null hypothesis that states that your deity does not exist remains unchallenged.

 

[wxtornado]

Nevermind

Lol, I often say the same thing in my head

 

[wxtornado]

So your saying that you dont believe that man and Dinosaurs coexsisted?

Serious question, Marie, or any theist for that matter. The fossil record says otherwise - how do you address evidence that you can actually see for yourself?

 

[Xaquin44]

Serious question, Marie, or any theist for that matter. The fossil record says otherwise - how do you address evidence that you can actually see for yourself?

It's easy.

Well in paul blah blah blah blah genesis blah blah blah blah we don't know how long a biblical day is blah blah blah blah added all the ages of people in the bible blah blah blah blah blah heaven blah blah blah blah blah one truth blah blah blah blah blah blah can't disprove blah blah blah blah blah blah blah jesus came back from the dead blah blah blah blah blah

etc. etc. etc.

 

[wxtornado]

It's easy.

God did it!

Fixed your post.

 

[migtig]

The historian Josephus- refers to Jesus.

Actually, that reference was written after Josephus and inserted at a later time according to achaeologists. Most believe it was probably by a religious Christian scribe. Regardless, this unvalidatated sentence should not be used in any way as a valid argument that Jesus existed.

Also as a side note, there are many pagan religions that pre-date Christianity that believe that some god or another died and was later risen. Odin, Osirius, Mithras, Dionysus and Attis are just a few that come to mind. So saying that there aren't any is also factually incorrect. There is tons of evidence historically to prove that these "gods" were worshipped pre-dating any Christian artifact.

Try your argument again by using a different tact called using facts. :shrug:

 

[migtig]

Well if you want proof Christ was here there are historical records by Josepheous and Polycarp

Again, you are very incorrect. I have a great idea, don't talk about it if you don't know it for a fact. I appreciate you think you know, but all you do is make your position look more foolish and stupid. Stick with what you know for a fact. Or say simply, I don't know, but I believe...

Historians Tacitus and Pliny were both born too late to write first hand about Jesus as factual historical evidence. Also Pliny's letters to the Emperor of Rome never mention Jesus - just the Christians.

Again, the historical evidence points to another man writing about Jesus in Josephus transalations. I looked it up and the credit goes to Eusebius. Eusebius was a historian in his own right, but was more concerned with proving the legitimacy of the early Roman Catholic church than he was in historical accuracy. In short the man was a fraud and a liar. Don't base your "evidence" and "facts" on lies.

 

[wxtornado]

Actually, that reference was written after Josephus and inserted at a later time according to achaeologists. Most believe it was probably by a religious Christian scribe. Regardless, this unvalidatated sentence should not be used in any way as a valid argument that Jesus existed.

Also as a side note, there are many pagan religions that pre-date Christianity that believe that some god or another died and was later risen. Odin, Osirius, Mithras, Dionysus and Attis are just a few that come to mind. So saying that there aren't any is also factually incorrect. There is tons of evidence historically to prove that these "gods" were worshipped pre-dating any Christian artifact.

Try your argument again by using a different tact called using facts. :shrug:

Indeed, and Jesus wasn't even a unique deity.

What difference is there between Jesus and Hercules for instance? Zeus (Jehovah) impregnated in some fashion with a human woman, and from her was born a demi-god with amazing powers who could perform miraculous feats.

Even a cursory glance at mythologies will show repetitive themes of man's salvation coming from the intercession of the gods with humans on a human playing field. It's archetypical, and makes perfect sense given man's level of sophisticated self-awareness.

And it's inspiring as well. Music, art, poetry, literature, even science all have been motivated and driven by this mythos. But to believe it is real is where the problems occur. It's value is lost when it becomes something that confers status on people for accepting or not accepting. Kept in the proper perspective, there's a lot to be said for these stories. Outside of that perspective, chaos truly reigns.

 

[This_person]

Wrong, again.


Jayne doesn't have to, since she is not the one that is claiming that something exists. She already has the default position. And since you have never presented any objective evidence and proof that your deity exists, the null hypothesis that states that your deity does not exist remains unchallenged.

As does EVERY hypothesis for the creation of the universe, and the creation of life.

 

[This_person]

pssssst that was a different thread

Yeah, but it's still true!

 

[Xaquin44]

Hypothesis - A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.

Creation by diety assumptions are not a hypothesis as there is no way of testing them.

 

[This_person]

Hypothesis - A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.

Creation by diety assumptions are not a hypothesis as there is no way of testing them.

So, you're saying there is and can be no hypothesis for the creation of life? Of the universe? Since none can be tested?

Good point, thanks.

 

[Marie]

Actually, that reference was written after Josephus and inserted at a later time according to achaeologists. Most believe it was probably by a religious Christian scribe. Regardless, this unvalidatated sentence should not be used in any way as a valid argument that Jesus existed.

Also as a side note, there are many pagan religions that pre-date Christianity that believe that some god or another died and was later risen. Odin, Osirius, Mithras, Dionysus and Attis are just a few that come to mind. So saying that there aren't any is also factually incorrect. There is tons of evidence historically to prove that these "gods" were worshipped pre-dating any Christian artifact.

Try your argument again by using a different tact called using facts. :shrug:

Ok First off Flavius Josephus was one of many I referenced, not the only one so if your point is solely based on one out of 5 or 10 its pretty week.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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Secondly a lot of people claim a lot of things, but how many of these others were seen by over 500 whiteness? How many sat down and ate lunch after their resurrection. Oh that’s right there is no proof of there claim. No one saw them. If there is no evidence that they did how can it be factually incorrect?<o></o>
I watched the video and heard its claims of 13 others to be a risen Messiah, what I didn’t see was any historical account such as the Bible with eye whiteness accounts, crowds in the 100's that witnessed him. In fact I can’t recall hearing about others that were dead coming out of their tombs and walking around in their cities when they rose from the dead? I don’t recall of over 300 prophecies with word for word details of them some over 400 years in the future and every single one being correct and happening just that way.<o></o>
In fact I cant even recall there names still being on peoples lips and being worshipped 2000 years latter oh someone tug up some fables but where are all their followers? I can’t recall of two times where crowds heard a voice from the heavens saying this is my son of whom I am well pleased. Barley a mention of existence compared to Jesus Christ. Oh and where is there book that’s sold more copies of any other book in history and after 2000 years it’s still preserved? Where is the account of there 11 followers that willing died some as late as 70 years latter for there leader? Where is their persecuted church that 2000 years latter are still dying for them for naming the name or worshiping them.
As for pegan religions predating Christianity ok, but they dont predate the basis of the religion( judaism) that has been around since the begining of time
and is were Judeo Christianinty takes its roots from.

 

[Xaquin44]

Ok First off Flavius Josephus was one of many I referenced, not the only one so if your point is solely based on one out of 5 or 10 its pretty week.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
<o></o>
Secondly a lot of people claim a lot of things, but how many of these others were seen by over 500 whiteness? How many sat down and ate lunch after their resurrection. Oh that’s right there is no proof of there claim. No one saw them. If there is no evidence that they did how can it be factually incorrect?<o></o>
I watched the video and heard its claims of 13 others to be a risen Messiah, what I didn’t see was any historical account such as the Bible with eye whiteness accounts, crowds in the 100's that witnessed him. In fact I can’t recall hearing about others that were dead coming out of their tombs and walking around in their cities when they rose from the dead? I don’t recall of over 300 prophecies with word for word details of them some over 400 years in the future and every single one being correct and happening just that way.<o></o>
In fact I cant even recall there names still being on peoples lips and being worshipped 2000 years latter oh someone tug up some fables but where are all their followers? I can’t recall of two times where crowds heard a voice from the heavens saying this is my son of whom I am well pleased. Barley a mention of existence compared to Jesus Christ. Oh and where is there book that’s sold more copies of any other book in history and after 2000 years it’s still preserved? Where is the account of there 11 followers that willing died some as late as 70 years latter for there leader? Where is their persecuted church that 2000 years latter are still dying for them for naming the name or worshiping them.
As for pegan religions predating Christianity ok, but they dont predate the basis of the religion( judaism) that has been around since the begining of time
and is were Judeo Christianinty takes its roots from.

WHY IT GOT TO BE WHITENESS!?!?!

2,000 year old unverifiable stories that briefly mention people seeing something is not even close to the same thing as actual verifiable history.

also, many gods have rose from death. It isn't an uncommon thing to find in ancient religions. Heck, just about every major greek god was swallowed alive, later to be rescued from deaths clutches.

also, the fact that people still talk about your religion means a great big fat nothing.

so what?

does talking about something prove it?

(the answer is no)

 

[Marie]

Well if you want proof Christ was here there are historical records by Josepheous and Polycarp

Again, you are very incorrect. I have a great idea, don't talk about it if you don't know it for a fact. I appreciate you think you know, but all you do is make your position look more foolish and stupid. Stick with what you know for a fact. Or say simply, I don't know, but I believe...

Historians Tacitus and Pliny were both born too late to write first hand about Jesus as factual historical evidence. Also Pliny's letters to the Emperor of Rome never mention Jesus - just the Christians. Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan, c. A.D. 111
"on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god"
If he never walked the earth there would be no point of the refrence!
Also I refer to Jesus Christ as either Jesus or Christ I think others do as well.

Again, the historical evidence points to another man writing about Jesus in Josephus transalations. I looked it up and the credit goes to Eusebius. Eusebius was a historian in his own right, but was more concerned with proving the legitimacy of the early Roman Catholic church than he was in historical accuracy. In short the man was a fraud and a liar. Don't base your "evidence" and "facts" on lies.

I think you missed the point of the post, you refer to, It was to provide Non Biblical refrences of Christ exsistance. This was taken from that very post!

So your point as to whether someone was alive or not is mute. Besides I never claimed they were first hand accounts!
They didn’t need to see/know Jesus to write about him, as most were still part of the first century Church. Christ followers (The Apostles) were still alive to tell their stories for these accounts to be recorded.
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Also my works of Josehus dosent have a disclaimer in it saying that its rummored to be a fake! Sorry I went to the source, I didnt go digging under rocks to try to disprove it!

So back to the intent of providing non Biblical historical refrences as to the life of Christ durning the first century church.

The Jewish Talmud, compiled between 70 and 200 AD: <o></o>
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover." <o></o>
[Another early reference in the Talmud speaks of five of Jesus's disciples and recounts their standing before judges.

Pliny added that Christianity attracted persons of all societal ranks, all ages, both sexes, and from both the city and the country. Late in his letter to Emperor Trajan, Pliny refers to the teachings of Jesus and his followers as excessive and contagious superstition.

Julius Africanus, writing around 221 AD, found a reference in the writings of Thallus, who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean around 52 AD, which dealt with the darkness that covered the land during Jesus's crucifixion: <o></o>
"Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness as an eclipse of the sun--unreasonably, as it seems to me." [A solar eclipse could not take place during a full moon, as was the case during Passover season.]

Oh and if you looked at the orignal post, I also gave the dates for these folks So I wasnt foolish or decieving anyone. In case you missed it here it is again

Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian:
Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD):
Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor around 112 AD:
Emperor Trajan, in reply to Pliny:
Emporer Hadrian (117-138 AD), in a letter to Minucius Fundanus, the Asian proconsul:
The Jewish Talmud, compiled between 70 and 200 AD:
Lucian, a second century Greek satirist:
Mara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, writing between 70 and 200 AD from prison to motivate his son to emulate wise teachers of the past:

 

[browneyes]

Wow, my head hurts after reading all those threads. lol
It's good to know that people are still thinking about God and whether He exists or not.

I don't feel I have to prove to Jayne or any one else that God exists.
(Except I do have to wonder, when they are really, really in trouble, who do they turn to and ask for help. I bet it's God That's when you will feel him and that's when you will know He is real.)

I don't believe you can prove to anyone that God exists by stating facts, especially when you are trying to convince people that clearly don't want to believe.
I don't think it has to be logical. I think perhaps your logic is what is holding you back.
You have to have faith and step out of natural way of thinking.

I believe in God.

I won't be viewing the movie. I've already found God. I am reading the New Testament Daily and strengthening my relationship with God not destroying it by viewing something that could confuse me. No I am not a follower of others, that's why I won't be viewing the movie. I have my own mind and my own beliefs. I do not condemn others for their beliefs.

However I do think Jayne is way off blaming religion for everything bad in the world. lol

 

[migtig]

So your point as to whether someone was alive or not is mute. Besides I never claimed they were first hand accounts!

Then they cannot be used as factual references - which IS the point.
If someone is accredited with saying something, but wasn't around first hand to witness it - then they are not historical records and cannot be used as an outside source of the facts. It's heresay in a court of law.

Marie, I appreciate that you are awash in your belief. However, again I say to you, if you can't prove it, stick with saying simply you believe. By pulling references that are inaccurate and non-factual, based upon years of historical and archaeological evidence, that is factual and proven, you make yourself and all believers look like nut cases.

See here's the thing, if you "believe" in something, nobody can refute it. But if you present lies as facts and proof, well then plenty of people can disprove it. Then what you believe, looks more like a non-truth than ever.

BTW, I didn't waste my time watching the video, why did you if you have already found something you believe in?!

 

[migtig]

Wow, my head hurts after reading all those threads. lol
It's good to know that people are still thinking about God and whether He exists or not.

I don't feel I have to prove to Jayne or any one else that God exists.
(Except I do have to wonder, when they are really, really in trouble, who do they turn to and ask for help. I bet it's God That's when you will feel him and that's when you will know He is real.)

I don't believe you can prove to anyone that God exists by stating facts, especially when you are trying to convince people that clearly don't want to believe.
I don't think it has to be logical. I think perhaps your logic is what is holding you back.
You have to have faith and step out of natural way of thinking.

I believe in God.

I won't be viewing the movie. I've already found God. I am reading the New Testament Daily and strengthening my relationship with God not destroying it by viewing something that could confuse me. No I am not a follower of others, that's why I won't be viewing the movie. I have my own mind and my own beliefs. I do not condemn others for their beliefs.

However I do think Jayne is way off blaming religion for everything bad in the world. lol

Very excellent post. I hope Marie reads this and understands.

 

[wxtornado]

As does EVERY hypothesis for the creation of the universe, and the creation of life.

True that! Nobody (well, except theists) claim to know how life was created.