Mary had a little lamb..........

[bcp]

I agree. Prayer should be brought back into the schools as well as the Pledge of Allegiance. Since it is true that everyone has their own way of showing reverence to GOD, I believe that a 20 minute period before the start of the school day should include 5 minutes for the class to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and 15 minutes of silent prayer to be used to pray to whatever GOD the individual believes in.

I think 15 minutes is way too long to ask children to be silent to reflect on inner matters or pray.

in reality, you can pray before you leave for school, I know that in my home a morning prayer is said every day.

I dont really have a problem with a moment of prayer not being offered at all, the problem is that the interpretations of seperation have gone too far.
teachers should be allowed to profess their faith in their God, never should we see a story about a child being asked to put her bible away during lunch, or a child being told they can not wear a Jesus Loves You Tee Shirt.
And at the same time, I can not agree with telling a child that they have to believe in Jesus, or God. That is the parents place to do so.

It should be ok to refer to Christmas as Christmas and not winter break, it should be ok during a class to discuss the possibility of creation if it pertains to what is being taught, as in, evolution.

again, if the founding fathers would have meant for the separation clause to mean there could be no reference to God in schools or in government offices, it would have not been allowed after they signed the document.
Yet, for so many years the school started off with a generic prayer to God. Courts had you swear on the Bible to tell the truth, Prayer was used at government functions asking God to help guide our leaders. It is clear that the current interpretation has gone to far to remove religion completely.

 

[Gwydion]

bcp - Please dont take this directed @ you. When I say "you" I am referring to anybody reading this article.

I think 15 minutes is way too long to ask children to be silent to reflect on inner matters or pray.

I agree 100%. 15 minutes takes way too much time out of the school day....which is why they are there. NOT TO PRAY. I mean, wouldnt you rather your child to be learning more and your child praying when s/he gets home or before they leave for the day and have your child learn more? I would!

in reality, you can pray before you leave for school, I know that in my home a morning prayer is said every day.

Precisely!

I dont really have a problem with a moment of prayer not being offered at all, the problem is that the interpretations of seperation have gone too far.
teachers should be allowed to profess their faith in their God, never should we see a story about a child being asked to put her bible away during lunch, or a child being told they can not wear a Jesus Loves You Tee Shirt.
And at the same time, I can not agree with telling a child that they have to believe in Jesus, or God. That is the parents place to do so.

precisely. Teachers should be able to express who THEY are without influencing kids. The problem is there is soooo many parents that get pissed off at everything and they could contort that to make it seem like aperson of power is christian and their muslim kid now wants to be christian. A child should be allowed to wear whatever clothes (religion-wise) or whatever book they wish during school. If parents believe that their children are not going to learn about other religions or cultures ever, they are morons and should be taken out back.

It should be ok to refer to Christmas as Christmas and not winter break, it should be ok during a class to discuss the possibility of creation if it pertains to what is being taught, as in, evolution.

Im going to have to disagree with you here. Christmas break (although centered around Christmas should not be called Christmas break BY THE SCHOOL. Sure, I call it X-mas break, just cuz for me it IS a X-mas break.But jewish people, muslims, anti-christs, dont celebrate x-mas and therefore should be caled winter break.

Creation is religion. Evolution is science. There is NO evidence what-so-ever that backs creationism...AT ALL. Evolution is found everywhere, the big bang theory is all but proven, and creationism is from a dusty old book based on faith....not fact. If you don't want your kid to hear about evolution, home teach them for a year. I could care less if a person doesn't want their child to be intelligent. And on top of that how are you going to teach Creationism? Is there going to be a slide show of Day 1: God said.... Day 2: God said........"Ok class what did god say on day 4?"


again, if the founding fathers would have meant for the separation clause to mean there could be no reference to God in schools or in government offices, it would have not been allowed after they signed the document.
Yet, for so many years the school started off with a generic prayer to God. Courts had you swear on the Bible to tell the truth, Prayer was used at government functions asking God to help guide our leaders. It is clear that the current interpretation has gone to far to remove religion completely.
and women weren't allowed to vote, blacks basically couldn't do a thing, there was no such thing as a phone, running water was rare if at all, etc. Times have changed. I would LOVE it if every person in the world followed a religion strictly. I would love it if each person in the world said a prayer once or twice a day. But thats not going to happen, and we should not FORCE anybody to do it. We are a free nation.

 

[tirdun]

Since it is true that everyone has their own way of showing reverence to GOD, I believe that a 20 minute period before the start of the school day should include 5 minutes for the class to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and 15 minutes of silent prayer to be used to pray to whatever GOD the individual believes in.

You know, I hear there's a whole DAY set aside in Christianity for prayer and worship. If you need another hour and fifteen minutes of prayer per week, get up earlier on Sunday. Go to church twice. There's even Saturday and sometimes weeknight Mass if your weekend is too full up. Pray with your kids before breakfast. Any of those will be far more fruitful than inserting nap time into the school day.

 

[bcp]

But my kid HAS to learn evolution or he wont graduate. Picture that

I think that evolution should be taught.
It has sound scientific theory backed up with some scientific fact.
it also causes the students to actually think about the world around them, and how it came to be.
It can also teach that the balance of nature can be easily disturbed by mans destructive nature.

My problem with evolution is the same problem others have with religion.
In both examples, the world was created by either elements or particles that just always were there, or by God, who just always was there.

Religion requires faith that God was always there
Science requires faith that certain elements were always there.

Our brains are not able to understand the idea of something being without a starting point. However, with evolution, or religion we have no choice but to accept that certain things must have just always been.

In the big bang theory it states that "in a swirling mist of hydrogen Atoms" well, ok, lets say I buy into that theory, Im the type that wants to know, where did those hydrogen atoms come from?

So, since in my mind I cant find answers to either one I feel that my faith in God is a closer answer than the evolution answer.

look at it this way.
suppose that you have a fish tank, and the fish lay eggs, and they hatch, and those babies grow up and lay eggs, and so on and so on.
now lets assume that fish have the ability to reason, and to communicate with each other, passing down knowlege from one generation to another.

after a few generations that tank full of fish know only one thing.
You, the person that drops the food in and keeps the tank clean, has always been there. their parents, grandparents etc... have also known you to always be there.
To some of the fish, you become their god (in a manner of speaking) you have always been there, and they have no reason to think that you wont always be there. They know that when they die, you take them away. Since they have no clue they are going down the toilet, they think that they are going to a better place.

 

[Gwydion]

look at it this way.
suppose that you have a fish tank, and the fish lay eggs, and they hatch, and those babies grow up and lay eggs, and so on and so on.
now lets assume that fish have the ability to reason, and to communicate with each other, passing down knowlege from one generation to another.

after a few generations that tank full of fish know only one thing.
You, the person that drops the food in and keeps the tank clean, has always been there. their parents, grandparents etc... have also known you to always be there.
To some of the fish, you become their god (in a manner of speaking) you have always been there, and they have no reason to think that you wont always be there. They know that when they die, you take them away. Since they have no clue they are going down the toilet, they think that they are going to a better place.

So THATS why my fish started building a sculpture of me out of their sand!

Interesting concept!

As far as religion goes, I have a vantage point very close to what you say. I can not, under any circumstances, come to the idea that god ACTUALLY created a man and a woman and gave them life in a garden. Not possible. 100% no way. I don't think god created a single animal, plant, anything.

BUT, where did the infinitismal point of mass of infinite deinsity come from? Was it the collapse of the entire Universe from before us? If so, where did THAT universe come from? So, where do we start? I have 2 opinions. One is we are in a video game very similar to the Sims. Our laws of physics are just a sliver of code. The other option is SOMETHING created us. But then who or what created him? Why did he decide at that specific moment all those bllions of years ago to "start" us. What was he doing before?

 

[Bavarian]

:
Creation is religion. Evolution is science. There is NO evidence what-so-ever that backs creationism...AT ALL. Evolution is found everywhere, the big bang theory is all but proven, and creationism is from a dusty old book based on faith....not fact.

The Big Bang is Creation. It was designed to scientifically prove creation as per Genesis. The big bang showed that first there was nothing, and in a flash the universe was created and filled the void. That is equivalent to God saying let there be light.
The Big Bang theory was originated by a religous brother asking a scientist friend to come up with a scientific version of the formation of the world that followed Genesis.

 

[Gwydion]

The Big Bang is Creation. It was designed to scientifically prove creation as per Genesis. The big bang showed that first there was nothing, and in a flash the universe was created and filled the void. That is equivalent to God saying let there be light.
The Big Bang theory was originated by a religous brother asking a scientist friend to come up with a scientific version of the formation of the world that followed Genesis.

But it is almost proven that is what occured. Therefore IF somebody did generate it to coincide with Genesis then they got lucky as hell. "God said 'Let there be light'" is nothing similar to "Let there be a point infinitismal in size and let it explode perfectly in all directions to create the world."

 

[Bavarian]

But it is almost proven that is what occured. Therefore IF somebody did generate it to coincide with Genesis then they got lucky as hell. "God said 'Let there be light'" is nothing similar to "Let there be a point infinitismal in size and let it explode perfectly in all directions to create the world."

It isn't! Sounds same to me.

 

[Gwydion]

It isn't! Sounds same to me.

Care to explain?

And about that whole Adam and eve bit...were they gorillas?

 

[bcp]

But it is almost proven that is what occured. Therefore IF somebody did generate it to coincide with Genesis then they got lucky as hell. "God said 'Let there be light'" is nothing similar to "Let there be a point infinitismal in size and let it explode perfectly in all directions to create the world."

What exploded and where did it come from?

you do understand how precise every single thing in our universe must be in order for life to exist dont you?

the odds of that actually being the case are infinite

 

[Gwydion]

What exploded and where did it come from?

I understand THAT portion of it...see my above post. I just dont interpret that as "let there be light".

you do understand how precise every single thing in our universe must be in order for life to exist dont you?

Yep I read some book where some christian guy was explaining how everything had to be PERFECT for us to be on this planet...which didn't really convince me. Considering there are billions of planets out there (of which there is almost certainly another civilization...there would exist intelligent creatures...somewhere. Earth just got lucky...

the odds of that actually being the case are infinite

I used to be a pretty religous guy. I wanted to learn as much as I could about HOW god did what he did, so I read the old testament and a ton of god vs. science books (both attempting to convince me one way or the other). I never really found a good explanation of anythign. Whether it be the idea that the 7 days of creation actually was more like 100's of billions of years...that the dinosaurs were the souls of the damned men lost in the flood of Noah, etc. I've read books that say god does not and never has existed, that our world will continue on forever, that we are in a parallel universe from before the big bang, etc.

I have faith in God. I however find that the bible was written by man to spread the word of God. There are parts of the bible that I think are BS, put I understand that. I have FAITH which is much more important than anything. I do not expect God to interact with me or talk to me. I do not EXPECT anything from God. But I DO expect God to be there.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
I have faith in God. I however find that the bible was written by man to spread the word of God. There are parts of the bible that I think are BS, put I understand that. I have FAITH which is much more important than anything. I do not expect God to interact with me or talk to me. I do not EXPECT anything from God. But I DO expect God to be there.

I have a question. What part of the Bible is right in your opinion? Do you believe in Jesus as your Savior? If the Biblical account of creation is false in your belief, then what makes the account of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection correct. How are you saved if you are?

If any part of the Bible is wrong, then the whole Bible is wrong. So there is the dilemma. If you don't believe in creation, then there is no Savior. I can't go that route. God is real. The Bible is the word of God. Creation is true. Jesus is my Savior.

 

[Gwydion]

I have a question. What part of the Bible is right in your opinion? Do you believe in Jesus as your Savior? If the Biblical account of creation is false in your belief, then what makes the account of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection correct. How are you saved if you are?

If any part of the Bible is wrong, then the whole Bible is wrong. So there is the dilemma. If you don't believe in creation, then there is no Savior. I can't go that route. God is real. The Bible is the word of God. Creation is true. Jesus is my Savior.

I have to run to a meeting....I'll answer when I get back...but until then I got a question for you. When you take communion, wha are you eating and drinking?

 

[Gwydion]

Meeting got pushed back a few minutes.

Because I do not believe that the bible is 100% true and real does not, IMO, damn me. Every different religous sect is a different religous sect for a reason. they have interpretted the Bible at some point in a different way. Growing up, I was Lutheran. I took my "Bible study class" which is a 2 year once a week program designed to walk you through the bible, the different stories behidn the bible, etc. As a Lutheran we believe that the bread and wine given to communion are representative of the bread and wine Jesus gave his followers. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that when the priest blesses the bread and wine they become the blood and body of christ. Does this difference damn one or the other? It is two different interpretations of the bible.

It is similar to my circumstance. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior. I believe that parts of the bible are written for a different reason than most other christians. I believe they are there to SPREAD the word of god. Nobody knows HOW the book was written or who the original author was. I DO believe that person to be a saint, a person that talked with god and then wrote a book spreading God's words and idealogy.

I do not believe that the world and everything was created in 7 days. I do not believe that adam and eve were the first people, capable of talking with animals, and living joyously in a garden. I do not believe Noah built an ark and the whole world went underwater. Why? Because there is no way Noah could have EVER gathered every animal ON A BOAT and set sail. I believe Jesus Christ was real. (I mean, we all know Jesus was a real person....) I believe he was in touch with God and God allowed him to do miraculous things. I do NOT believe tehre is a leviathon waiting to destroy our world from somewhere deep withing the ocean.

I choose to practice my faith in my own way. If you go to church and believe all of that, good for you. If you go to a mosque and believe all of that, good for you. If you don't believe in any faith, good for you. I practice my own faith, a faith just like yours, I just have a problem believing 100% in the bible.

Do not kill, do not rape, to not steal. These are principles, which every man of every faith can embrace. These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of behavior and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost.

cliche to quote from a movie, but regardless. Live by these rules and you will get far in the eyes of any savior you have.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I have to run to a meeting....I'll answer when I get back...but until then I got a question for you. When you take communion, wha are you eating and drinking?

Bread and wine. Transubstantiation is a Catholic doctrine which didn't even exist in the Catholic church until the Forth Lateran Council in 1215.

And since you will inevitable bring up John 6, I'll go ahead and address it.

John 6:41-58

41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven."

42They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"

43Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.

44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

47"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

48"I am the bread of life.

49"Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"

53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

55"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

57"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

58"This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

Jesus often spoke in parables to those that did not believe. He was speaking to the Jews who did not believe in Him. As Christians we must take Him in. We surrender to Him. We believe in His body crucified and resurrected. We believe that the shedding of His blood saves us from our sins. Hence we partake of His body and His blood. We open our lives to the Holy Spirit who then lives in us.

 

[Gwydion]

Bread and wine. Transubstantiation is a Catholic doctrine which didn't even exist in the Catholic church until the Forth Lateran Council in 1215.

And since you will inevitable bring up John 6, I'll go ahead and address it.
Jesus often spoke in parables to those that did not believe. He was speaking to the Jews who did not believe in Him. As Christians we must take Him in. We surrender to Him. We believe in His body crucified and resurrected. We believe that the shedding of His blood saves us from our sins. Hence we partake of His body and His blood. We open our lives to the Holy Spirit who then lives in us.

And what version of the bible do you quote?

 

[2ndAmendment]

Meeting got pushed back a few minutes.

Because I do not believe that the bible is 100% true and real does not, IMO, damn me. Every different religous sect is a different religous sect for a reason. they have interpretted the Bible at some point in a different way. Growing up, I was Lutheran. I took my "Bible study class" which is a 2 year once a week program designed to walk you through the bible, the different stories behidn the bible, etc. As a Lutheran we believe that the bread and wine given to communion are representative of the bread and wine Jesus gave his followers. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that when the priest blesses the bread and wine they become the blood and body of christ. Does this difference damn one or the other? It is two different interpretations of the bible.

It is similar to my circumstance. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior. I believe that parts of the bible are written for a different reason than most other christians. I believe they are there to SPREAD the word of god. Nobody knows HOW the book was written or who the original author was. I DO believe that person to be a saint, a person that talked with god and then wrote a book spreading God's words and idealogy.

I do not believe that the world and everything was created in 7 days. I do not believe that adam and eve were the first people, capable of talking with animals, and living joyously in a garden. I do not believe Noah built an ark and the whole world went underwater. Why? Because there is no way Noah could have EVER gathered every animal ON A BOAT and set sail. I believe Jesus Christ was real. (I mean, we all know Jesus was a real person....) I believe he was in touch with God and God allowed him to do miraculous things. I do NOT believe tehre is a leviathon waiting to destroy our world from somewhere deep withing the ocean.

I choose to practice my faith in my own way. If you go to church and believe all of that, good for you. If you go to a mosque and believe all of that, good for you. If you don't believe in any faith, good for you. I practice my own faith, a faith just like yours, I just have a problem believing 100% in the bible.

No where did I say you were damed. And where did you get the idea that a leviathan waiting to destroy our world from somewhere deep withing the ocean? The only verses that mention leviathan are Job 3:8, Job 41:1, Psalm 74:14, Psalm 104:26, and Isaiah 27:1 and none of those say anything of leviathan destroying the world.

Did you read my post where I mentioned the Catholic belief of transubstantiation or did our post cross paths?

Seems like you believe it is all good; Muslim, Hinduism, pick your own belief system, whatever. Sound doctrine is key.

2 Timothy 4:1-5

1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

And don't forget this scripture.

James 2:18-20 18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

 

[2ndAmendment]

And what version of the bible do you quote?

Most often, I quote the New American Standard which is considered to be one of the best modern English translations. It was translated from the earliest texts available in the original languages. Sometimes I use the New King James or the New International Version (NIV). I find there are some problems with the NIV mostly because it leaves out the word blood many times, but it reads well.

 

[Gwydion]

(Text added for length)

No where did I say you were damed.

Nor did I claim you did, it was a mere comment.

And where did you get the idea that a leviathan waiting to destroy our world from somewhere deep withing the ocean? The only verses that mention leviathan are Job 3:8, Job 41:1, Psalm 74:14, Psalm 104:26, and Isaiah 27:1 and none of those say anything of leviathan destroying the world.

I apologize. I was thinking of: "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Must have gotten carried away with myself.


Did you read my post where I mentioned the Catholic belief of transubstantiation or did our post cross paths?

Yep, after I wrote mine. I find it interesting that Catholics can change a whole belief system of one of the most sacred practices on the whim of things...any idea why that occurred?

Seems like you believe it is all good; Muslim, Hinduism, pick your own belief system, whatever. Sound doctrine is key.And don't forget this scripture.

Good scripture! Anyody that is willing to discuss religion is more than welcome to with me. I am just claiming that religion is religion. Besides paganism (and probably a few others) there aren't any religions that wish people to murder, rape, or steal from other people.

 

[bcp]

Im still partial to the old King James Version.
I really had problems with the living Bible when it came out.

Every time it is translated it leaves room for interpretation by the ones translating it. So, a little bit of what you read in any of the english translated versions is going to contain just a bit of bias depending on the translator.

There are many verses that can be quoted and discussed covering almost anything that comes up in our lives. An interesting thing if you ask me considering a book written 2000 + years ago can still cover situations that we fight with today.

at any rate, I dont care what version any individual person reads as long as the basic message comes out.

Jesus Christ is the way.
Without a belief in Jesus Christ, and (my interpretation) an attempt at living by his words, there is no way to gain your salvation.

Jesus Christ is the only way. He is the light, and he is the word.

Like it or not, I always add to my prayers that those that are blind to the words of Jesus Christ will find him so that they too can be given the gift of everlasting life with the Lord promised so many years ago.