More Trent Lott stuff

[Heretic]

I think a voucher program would help my coworkers here in St Marys County send their kids to a school that they see fit.

Maybe not so much a voucher as a tax deduction.......maybe.

Again all of these education plans are set up by well to do people that mostly send their kids to private schools.

Im 28 btw

 

[demsformd]

A tax credit for private school education would be a great idea. I think that that is much more managable than a private school voucher plan. It would be theoretically avaliable to all families in America instead of the minority that would benefit from the Bush voucher plan.
I also disagree with VRA's characterization of welfare and social security as slave programs. The only thing that you think of when you see the names of those programs is its a handout. They are not...they are safety nets to ensure that poor do not become even poorer and ensure that our retired elders in America do not become victim to the lack of an income. These are most definitely not slave programs.

 

[demsformd]

President Clinton's welfare reform, which I supported, made it law that one could not stay on the rolls for more than five years. This decreases abuse and your vision of a "slave" to the program.

 

[Heretic]

I don't exactly think Social Security is a slave program, but I think it is fairly worthless. When you can take the money and invest it into something very stable (ie US government savings bonds) and earn 50% more interest something is wrong in my opinion.

Im also not sure why but many people at one point believed it was a retirement program and now live solely on SS. Considering the size of the payouts I dont see how anyone can live on it.

I believe that money is yours and if you die before you retire it should go to your heirs and not someone else, after all you earned the money.

 

[vraiblonde]

Why are the BOE, welfare and SS slave programs? Think about who controls them: the government massas.

SS is YOUR money but you don't control it - the government does. They choose how it will be "invested", how much of it you'll get back, at what age you can retire and start receiving it. PS, if you die, your kids don't even get that money you worked for - the government keeps it. Considering that black men have a shorter life expectancy than white men, and many will never get back all the money they put into SS, I think we can make the case that it's a racist program, too.

It's YOUR children being educated at public schools - but you don't control that either. You don't get to decide the curriculum, you don't get to help plan the school lunches, you don't get any say-so in who your child's teacher will be. If your kid's school is teaching them something you disagree with (like certain sex ed topics, for example), too bad - there's nothing you can do.

Welfare, same thing - YOU, as either the person paying for it or receiving it, don't control it - the government does. If you are a welfare recipient, you are subject to intrusive home visits and child monitoring. If you get sick and must see a doctor, they choose the one you see. You are a dependent of the state and you MUST do what they tell you or they'll cut off your money. If that's not slavery, I don't know what is.

 

[kelley]

Just because the government controls a program does not make them "slave" programs. That sounds like rhetoric from Newt Gingrich or Trent Lott. Parents do have the option to remove their students from sex ed, the teacher is required to state the risks and students must have a form signed in order to partake in the education.

Well, I would guess that conservatives would support the complete removal of welfare and are big about trimming the abuse of welfare, which is a good thing to be big about. So it is conservatives and moderates like our immoral ex-president that decided that we needed home visits and other federal regulation. The receipents would much rather have some regulations rather than live on the street I would guess.

SS is racist when we generalize the program. Racist programs are segregation and attempts by pols to keep them from voting. Inadvertanly (sp?) creating racism due to the early death rates of blacks does not constitute a slave or racist program.

 

[bknarw]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
That was a nice little Democrat sidestep and redirect, boys.

My thoughts exactly...

But don't beat them up with logic, Vrai...or they'll just resort to insults again...

 

[vraiblonde]

Think about slave life on the old plantations. Who decided when a slave was old enough to work and old enough to retire? Who decided what the slaves should be taught and not taught? Who decided what type of housing, food and medical care the slaves received? Massa did, that's who. Our current system really is no different than plantation life.

 

[bknarw]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Think about slave life on the old plantations. Who decided when a slave was old enough to work and old enough to retire? Who decided what the slaves should be taught and not taught? Who decided what type of housing, food and medical care the slaves received? Massa did, that's who. Our current system really is no different than plantation life.

But by Democratic Party standards, people aren't able to figure those things out on their own; they MUST be dictated by government mandate!

 

[vraiblonde]

BK, EXACTLY! Many of the old massas actually justified slavery by saying that Negroes couldn't take care of themselves. They felt they were doing them a service by keeping them slaves. Sound familiar?

 

[bknarw]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
BK, EXACTLY! Many of the old massas actually justified slavery by saying that Negroes couldn't take care of themselves. They felt they were doing them a service by keeping them slaves. Sound familiar?

However, upon further review, I used the words "Democratic Party" and "mandate" in the same sentence.
Considering November's elections, does that qualify as an oxymoron?

 

[kelley]

Originally posted by bknarw
However, upon further review, I used the words "Democratic Party" and "mandate" in the same sentence.
Considering November's elections, does that qualify as an oxymoron?

This is a valid point especially if one is of the partisan Republican situation. Yet, and I am not assessing this as a partisan Democrat because as I have established I am not, the midterm elections were a little more than a slight rise for the GOP. I just wrote a term paper about them to fully analyze the results.

The Republicans gained a net two seats in the US Senate. Their victories came in Missouri, Minnesota, and Georgia. Save Minnesota, these states voted for Bush two years ago and Georgia did so resoundingly. President Bush effectively used 9/11 and national security as hot-button issues that tilted favor towards the Republicans. The Democrats meanwhile were dumbfounded and did not expect Bush's interference in the elections to do as much damage to the party as it did. The party did not present a unified national image either and the leaders of the party were greatly unknown. These small things led to small margins of victory for all the Republicans in these races. In Minnesota, the tribute to the late Senator Paul Wellstone created the loss of Walter Mondale and the race in Misssouri was lost due to the weakness of an inexperienced, appointed politician. And well if a man carries a state by over ten points like Bush did in Georgia, I would expect the state to favor his party for down-ballot offices.

The Republicans maintained control of the Senate and picked up around six seats due to their control of state legislatures in several large states that redistricted lines in their states to ensure maximum Republican gain in the congressional elections. Reapportionment also provided more congressional seats to states that voted for Bush last time. It was expected that the GOP would gain from 10-15 seats yet the Democrats were even able to hold them down in their gains despite the hindrance of redistricting and a popular president of the other party.

So based on this I cannot see how the Democrats could be casted aside as a minority party or without a base in American politics. They have been labeled as dead many times in history but they are always there and they always bounce back. The last election, while a great success for the GOP and President Bush, is not as successful as some Republicans would like to think.

 

[MGKrebs]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Inner city schools: who are the majority of the students? Duh, Beavis - minority children. So how will vouchers help them? Duh again - it will enable them to ditch the crap school they're at and maybe get an education somewhere.

So what is it about voucher schools that is so attractive? Are there a bunch of fine schools in the burbs that don't have enough students that I don't know about?

 

[vraiblonde]

Maynard, I thought you were a business owner? If so, then you understand that if there's money to be made educating kids, some enterprising person will take advantage of it. Once vouchers and school choice are the law of the land, you'll see more Montessori schools, more parochial schools, and more general education schools. Remember - you heard it here first.

The problem with public schools is that they're not run like a business. They're like that caterer on the Flintstones (you know, the one that gets the Lodge party mixed up with Pebbles' birthday party) - they're the only game in town so they don't have to offer you good service or value. The Teachers Unions and the Board of Ed have seen to it that there's no accountability and nothing the taxpayers can do about it.

 

[vraiblonde]

I added to my above post when you weren't looking

Where does anyone get employees? Do you know how many teachers there are out there that are working in another field because they got tired of the BOE BS? A lot. I personally know of about 10 of them.

 

[vraiblonde]

Oh, so now you delete your post and make it look like I'm talking to myself!

 

[demsformd]

Originally posted by MGKrebs
Where are they going to get the teachers?

There is another problem: the vast and growing teacher shortage. Teachers make far too less for what they get and the teaching profession just is not as attractive as the private sector or even other government jobs. They go to an entry-level job and they do not get too much promotion besides a raise of a couple of thousand if they get a masters degree or something.

Funding for school construction and smaller classes is also another item that needs to be reformed within the education department. More schools will make class sizes smaller and thus will make education more resposive to the students. Instead of funding more and more standarized testing, we should really focus on building schools, attracting teachers, and keeping class sizes down.

 

[MGKrebs]

Well, there is NO evidence that Edison has had any success. School is NOT a business. It is an investment in our community.

The problem with schools that underperform is that parents aren't involved. By advocating vouchers, we are saying that we want to get OUR kids away from that. That may work for you and me, but it's a pyramid scheme. It doesn't fix anything, and the next generation will have it worse.

I think you are wrong on the accountability issue. If anything, public schools have to be TOO accountable to too many people and too many politicians. It is a public institution after all. Everybody can't be pleased, so we try to please as many as possible. Even if it pisses off the selfish among us. Because that's how I see this: it's the typical selfish conservative viewpoint; if it's good enough for ME, then it's good enough for everybody else. And if it's not good enough for somebody, then they aren't working hard enough and to hell with them.

Magnet schools, fine. Transfers within a district, fine. Vouchers to private schools- another easy concept to a complicated problem that fixes nothing but makes us feel better.

 

[MGKrebs]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
I added to my above post when you weren't looking

So that's what happened! I thought I was losing it. Sheesh. I deleted that post because i thought I hadn't seen the rest of yours. and It no longer was relevant.

 

[kelley]

You know, basically one has to make their own education. Education comes if one has determination and willpower. If one wants to learn, they will no matter what.