More Trent Lott stuff

[Larry Gude]

Honey!

What of the Holiday Spirit!?

Give it a week or so! You'll feel better! Besides, the facts aren't going anywhere anytime soon, least of all through a few thick skulls around here.

Peace on earth! Goodwill until after New Years!

 

[MGKrebs]

I just don't know what else to say.

You've seen the statistics but you ignore them.
You admit discrimination exists, but you think we should do nothing.
You attribute the actions of a few to a whole race.
You choose to look at miniscule aberrations as an indictment of the whole.
As a solution you offer nothing.

As far as I understand it, affirmative action is this:

There are a couple of federal laws that outlaw discrimination. All the rest is about companies, cities, and colleges struggling to find the appropriate mechanisms to make sure they are not acting discriminatory. Many of these programs are ending up in court. Hopefully, none of you who pay lip service only to affirmative action will be or are judges!

 

[demsformd]

VRA I disagree with your assertion that the Democratic Party has "fooled" all of us. I think its just that since you are a conservative Republican you don't understand how people can be any other type of ideology or party. We do care about the poor, we pass efforts like welfare for the poorest and least fortunate, social security for our most vulnerable citizens, the department of education to ensure that all the children of America have the opportunity to receive an education.
I do not understand your statement of how school vouchers would benefit minorities. While this would aid a small fraction of students in the poorest areas, it does not benefit the largest contingent of American students. Instead of improving the schools for all American children, we would only improve the situation of a fraction of our students. Vouchers would not help minority students to the same extent as would wider education reform.

 

[bknarw]

Originally posted by demsformd
VRA We do care about the poor, we pass efforts like welfare for the poorest and least fortunate, social security for our most vulnerable citizens, the department of education to ensure that all the children have the opportunity to receive an education.

Yet you oppose military action against Iraq...a country that's been oppressed by a hard-right regime that takes civil rights away from it's people and oppresses them; it offers no chance for social reform and could care less about proper education for it's youth?

Not to get off on a tangent...but to me, this is illustrative of the many contradictions within the liberal mindset.

 

[Kain99]

Re: After all,

Originally posted by MGKrebs
If Black people really were equal in ability and determination, the numbers would work out to the right proportion anyway. Therefore...

Dayum Krebs.... What are you saying???? Blacks aren't equal in ability and determination??? My God Man.... You've lost your mind!

 

[demsformd]

Originally posted by bknarw
Yet you oppose military action against Iraq...a country that's been oppressed by a hard-right regime that takes civil rights away from it's people and oppresses them; it offers no chance for social reform and could care less about proper education for it's youth?

Not to get off on a tangent...but to me, this is illustrative of the many contradictions within the liberal mindset.

Since when should our nation fight against the oppression of a foreign ruler when oppression still occurs here in America? We need to fix the stuff that happens here in America everyday before we start to dictate our will on other nations.
You call my viewpoint as contradictory...I see it as complex. You see, we think a whole hell of a lot before we act merely on our emotions and do so simplicistically. We are the complex ideology, the conservative is "Ideology for Dummies."

 

[MGKrebs]

Originally posted by bknarw
Yet you oppose military action against Iraq...a country that's been oppressed by a hard-right regime that takes civil rights away from it's people and oppresses them; it offers no chance for social reform and could care less about proper education for it's youth?

Not to get off on a tangent...but to me, this is illustrative of the many contradictions within the liberal mindset.

So you think we should impose civil rights on a foreign country but remove them in our own?

 

[vraiblonde]

That was a nice little Democrat sidestep and redirect, boys.

Maynard, I have no idea what you're talking about - I have to assume you're responding to a different post and not mine.

Dems, you did not refute a single one of my points except to say that you do not understand how school vouchers will benefit minorities. And the only reason you don't understand it is because you CHOOSE not to. Inner city schools: who are the majority of the students? Duh, Beavis - minority children. So how will vouchers help them? Duh again - it will enable them to ditch the crap school they're at and maybe get an education somewhere.

Dems, you cited three failed slavery programs to try to make your case about how much Democrats "care". Does the irony of that escape you?

 

[kelley]

Well, here's my first post of any real significane I guess.
vraiblonde, I am inferring that you implied to demsformd's social security, welfare, and DOE reference. You then called them slave programs or something to that extent. I would have to disagree with that belief. While these programs do need reform, I cannot see how they would be construed as slave programs. I especially would take exception to the social security and DOE references that you blonde said. Social security has provided generations of American elders with a safety net. Since its creation, the percentage of the elderly under poverty has decreased around 70%. The DOE has done great things to ensure that the children of America receive a good education (like provide student loans for people like me hehe.) Welfare, while its abuse it the most publicized part of the program, still does great things for the poor. It provides a supplement and with President Clinton's reform package, abuse will be trimmed even more.
As for school vouchers, they are a generally bad idea for private schools and public schools. Vouchers benefit a minority of students at the expense of the other greater majority that go to schools throughout the nation, whether in suburbia, the inner city or rural America. Why should we help a minority when all our schools need help? Spread the wealth if you ask me.

 

[Kain99]

Look at Kelley! Out of the frying pan and head first into the fire! Whew.... You go girl, hope ya love a good debate!

Come on Vrai! This is an equal opportunity bash fest... No nice B.S. for the newbie...

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by demsformd
Since when should our nation fight against the oppression of a foreign ruler when oppression still occurs here in America?

When that same oppressive nation is bent on dealing a blow against our citizens and continues to pursue weapons of mass destruction beyond the limits imposed by the UN.

We need to fix the stuff that happens here in America everyday before we start to dictate our will on other nations.

What "stuff" needs fixing? Are you talking about allowing many foreign nationals to come to this country and draw Social Security when they have never contributed to it? Are you talking about all the many foreign nationals here on visas pursuing other goals, like the destruction of our nation, that need to be rounded up and kicked out?

While certainly there are things that need to be fixed, our government is obligated to provide for the common defense. The threat of Iraq and its stated intentions should draw notice and action by our government. Failure to do so is gross negligence and contrary to our Constitution.

 

[Heretic]

Originally posted by kelley
Vouchers benefit a minority of students at the expense of the other greater majority that go to schools throughout the nation, whether in suburbia, the inner city or rural America. Why should we help a minority when all our schools need help? Spread the wealth if you ask me.

Isnt benefiting a minority while taking away from the majority the liberal way?

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by Heretic
Isnt benefiting a minority while taking away from the majority the liberal way?

Only when it's a "preferred minority"

 

[Heretic]

I dont exactly believe in sending your kids to private scools, but forcing kids to stay at a school that does more harm than good to them is just wrong. You could have a future doctor, lawyer (heaven forbid), engineer, scientist, journalist, novelist there and due to being in a bad enviroment they end up being a gang banger, crack head, murder, etc.

After all what we want is for our kids to succede and be the best they can be.

The thing that really gets me is this subject is debated by people that never went to an inner city school, let the people that have to send their kids there speak.

 

[kelley]

Yeah, I always get right in the thick of things

I do not oppose school choice, I oppose private school vouchers. The establishment of charter and magnet schools is the most progressive action that our government could do in order to help students in desperately failing schools. These types of schools would do much to ensure that the students "trapped" in an inner-city school would receive an option without jeopardizing the funding of public schools. Magnet schools have done wonders in Montgomery County as well as Baltimore City. So, I think that the Democrats' support of public school choice is more practical than the GOP's private school voucher program.

 

[Heretic]

I believe education is what you make of it but I also believe some need help.

I dont know if this situation exists but what if the nearest decent public school is a 2 hour bus ride away and there is a perfectly good private school next door?

I ask mostly because quite a few people I work with make good money but are busting their butts sending their kids to private school because they say the schools arround here suck. I really have no idea since im young and single still.

 

[kelley]

On the Issue of Race

I see efforts by companies, colleges, and the government to trim discrimination as doing far much more good than bad. Diversity within an institution is vital to its creative success, especially in a college setting. Companies need different experiences in order to fuction correctly and to continue to prosper. Affirmative Action, in my humble opinion, prevents discrimination from occurring, it does not stimulate it. Quotas do create bias, but Affirmative Action does not.

 

[kelley]

Originally posted by Heretic
I really have no idea since im young and single still.

Hey hey, how old are you? LOL, me too!! hehe.

 

[kelley]

Originally posted by Heretic
I ask mostly because quite a few people I work with make good money but are busting their butts sending their kids to private school because they say the schools arround here suck.

President Bush's voucher plan would not cover this area because it is too rural and the schools here do not fail "enough". That is the main problem with the reform that the president advocates, it only aids a small small part of the population while wider education reform would help more people. Like I said, the plan would not affect here in St. Mary's County, it would not throughout the middle part of America, nor would it in the suburbs. Vouchers is strictly for the inner-city. Is that fair?

 

[demsformd]

I like Kelley...hehe as she would say. Another problem that I have with private school vouchers is from the standpoint of a parent of a child who attends private school. With federal money comes more federal regulation of what should be private. Private schools are private and free from government interference, vouchers would only cause the schools to renounce their independence from government dictate.