not having a college degree seen as a negative thing

[Larry Gude]

If you're saying that they made their mistakes based upon their degrees, then yes. .

It is hard to rank Bush's failures, but his MBA and the economy, Med D, GM bailout, TARP, that is the one most pertinent to this thread. As for Obama, one can only wonder what kind of law degree he has. Certainly not OUR constitution.

 

[Lurk]

Noooooo. Remember, the birth certificate is fake.

Correctamundo.

 

[Larry Gude]

I Obama had never been in charge of anything or held responsible for any of his actions, so he has no experience with failure (and, as a business owner I'm sure you understand failure is a prerequisite for success).

Right, but it's usually best to not put someone in charge of everything and then let them gain some experience. We gave him the space shuttle and he'd never run an RC airplane.

 

[Larry Gude]

I think you are making a huge, and incorrect, assumption. In my experience people who went to college didn't avoid the real world, they excelled at it. Nearly every person I went to undergrad with had gotten great grades in advanced classes, played sports or other activities, and did some sort of volunteer work and/or had a job. That's everything heir peers did in high school and more, not to mention at a higher level.

See, if you excel at school sports, advanced classes, other school related activities, you are, by definition, acclimated to a school environment. Thus, you're going to excel in any sort of environment that fosters that. You know how to get along and cope with THAT controlled environment. And that is great and I am not disparaging the work effort, at all. My point is you're simply not going to know jack #### about interacting with ditch diggers, waitresses, contractors, local boards, foreign nations, the car repair guy and everyone else in the world who did NOT excel in that environment. You have no frame of reference. You know how to be part of the system. That's your box.

 

[Midnightrider]

See, if you excel at school sports, advanced classes, other school related activities, you are, by definition, acclimated to a school environment. Thus, you're going to excel in any sort of environment that fosters that. You know how to get along and cope with THAT controlled environment. And that is great and I am not disparaging the work effort, at all. My point is you're simply not going to know jack #### about interacting with ditch diggers, waitresses, contractors, local boards, foreign nations, the car repair guy and everyone else in the world who did NOT excel in that environment. You have no frame of reference. You know how to be part of the system. That's your box.

I don't know what world you live in, but in mine doing well in school does not isolate you from the rest of the world and its experiences. A college track student is going to have just as much exposure to those people as a non college track student. I worked as a busboy/cook, a carpenter, and retail while I was in college. Plenty of contact with the everyday trials and tribulations

 

[PeoplesElbow]

See, if you excel at school sports, advanced classes, other school related activities, you are, by definition, acclimated to a school environment. Thus, you're going to excel in any sort of environment that fosters that. You know how to get along and cope with THAT controlled environment. And that is great and I am not disparaging the work effort, at all. My point is you're simply not going to know jack #### about interacting with ditch diggers, waitresses, contractors, local boards, foreign nations, the car repair guy and everyone else in the world who did NOT excel in that environment. You have no frame of reference. You know how to be part of the system. That's your box.

There are ditch diggers that have trouble interacting with other ditch diggers and engineers that have trouble interacting with other engineers. It has nothing to do with what they do, whether or not they went to college, it has to do with who they are.

I know a high school dropout, auto mechanic and he can fit in with any crowd you put him in, he is well spoken and you would think he was some sort of professional, but he isn't. I know engineers that have no problem interacting with the garbage man, but I also know ones who are afraid to talk to the guy in the very next cubicle.

 

[PsyOps]

See, if you excel at school sports, advanced classes, other school related activities, you are, by definition, acclimated to a school environment. Thus, you're going to excel in any sort of environment that fosters that. You know how to get along and cope with THAT controlled environment. And that is great and I am not disparaging the work effort, at all. My point is you're simply not going to know jack #### about interacting with ditch diggers, waitresses, contractors, local boards, foreign nations, the car repair guy and everyone else in the world who did NOT excel in that environment. You have no frame of reference. You know how to be part of the system. That's your box.

I think this is true in so many environments. Look at Obama or McCain or your typical Hollywood type... people that chose to close themselves into a world - a bubble - that their only frame of reference for everything is inside that bubble. That's why I think career politics is a bad thing. They get encapsulated in all the insider-speak that they forget how the real world operates.

But anyone that has been working in the real world knows all-too-well that a college education - although important for getting the grass-roots knowledge - is useless when operating in the realm of needed experience. I have worked with very few people that came right out of college that were worth a darn. I have worked with many that came right out of college that thought they were THE HOT #### because they have that degree, only to find out they're useless in just about everything, except how to quote something from a text book.

 

[Midnightrider]

I think this is true in so many environments. Look at Obama or McCain or your typical Hollywood type... people that chose to close themselves into a world - a bubble - that their only frame of reference for everything is inside that bubble. That's why I think career politics is a bad thing. They get encapsulated in all the insider-speak that they forget how the real world operates.

But anyone that has been working in the real world knows all-too-well that a college education - although important for getting the grass-roots knowledge - is useless when operating in the realm of needed experience. I have worked with very few people that came right out of college that were worth a darn. I have worked with many that came right out of college that thought they were THE HOT #### because they have that degree, only to find out they're useless in just about everything, except how to quote something from a text book.

College isn't intended to provide OJT. One of my professors said something like 'your degree (bachelors) only means that you are educable'. That's pretty much true, and I know my first job after graduating they didn't expect you 'know' anything. They expected you to be a fast learner.

 

[Larry Gude]

I don't know what world you live in, but in mine doing well in school does not isolate you from the rest of the world and its experiences. A college track student is going to have just as much exposure to those people as a non college track student. I worked as a busboy/cook, a carpenter, and retail while I was in college. Plenty of contact with the everyday trials and tribulations

No, they're not. By definition, if you are immersed in school, athletics and other activities, all centered around the academic environment, that is your world, you experience. Instructors, administrators, coaches, fellow students and athletes. I'm not knocking this. I am saying that leaves a lot out and if your career path tends to keep you in that sort of world, then it stays your experience. Same thing happens with military folks. Same thing happens with blue collar folks. Most people are of THEIR world and one anthers blind spots stick out. It's why so many of the members of Team Obama sound like a bunch of young, successful college types who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

They don't.

 

[Larry Gude]

There are ditch diggers that have trouble interacting with other ditch diggers and engineers that have trouble interacting with other engineers. It has nothing to do with what they do, whether or not they went to college, it has to do with who they are.

I know a high school dropout, auto mechanic and he can fit in with any crowd you put him in, he is well spoken and you would think he was some sort of professional, but he isn't. I know engineers that have no problem interacting with the garbage man, but I also know ones who are afraid to talk to the guy in the very next cubicle.

I was hoping it went without saying their are exceptions.

 

[Dakota]

That's not a Constitutional requirement and, as such, should not be required. We VOTE people into office. We, the people, could consider insisting on things like that, knowing more about whom we vote for, but it is not and should not be a Constitutional requirement. Our system was designed so we could choose someone like Dubbya or Obama or Clinton or even an ex actor.

I do understand that but what baffles me in all of this is Obama ran on the platform of more transparency yet has gone great lengths to make sure that doesn't pertain to his background.

 

[vraiblonde]

I know a high school dropout, auto mechanic and he can fit in with any crowd you put him in, he is well spoken and you would think he was some sort of professional, but he isn't. I know engineers that have no problem interacting with the garbage man, but I also know ones who are afraid to talk to the guy in the very next cubicle.

It is my personal experience that the more formally educated a person is, the less social skills they have. Highly intelligent people tend to be fairly lacking in their social development, either by nature or circumstances of their being different from their peers. So it doesn't surprise me that the mechanic is personable, while the engineer is socially awkward. Which is fine and there's a place in this world for everyone.

 

[Larry Gude]

I do understand that but what baffles me in all of this is Obama ran on the platform of more transparency yet has gone great lengths to make sure that doesn't pertain to his background.

That gets into voter psychology. Our guy can promise to be right and govern further left than their guy and we won't see it because of our emotional attachment. There guy can promise everything the other guy supposedly lacked yet do the same stuff and they cant, won't see it.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

I was hoping it went without saying their are exceptions.

I'm not really talking exceptions here, in my opinion there is a broad range in the engineers I know. Personally I relate better to our non-degreed people that do the "grunt" work.

 

[PsyOps]

I know a high school dropout, auto mechanic and he can fit in with any crowd you put him in, he is well spoken and you would think he was some sort of professional, but he isn't. I know engineers that have no problem interacting with the garbage man, but I also know ones who are afraid to talk to the guy in the very next cubicle.

I know a HS dropout that is a very successful, multi-term mayor of a MD city.

 

[Larry Gude]

I'm not really talking exceptions here, in my opinion there is a broad range in the engineers I know. Personally I relate better to our non-degreed people that do the "grunt" work.

No, there is not. Engineers are kooks. There are exceptions, of course but, by and large, kooks.

 

[Hank]

No, there is not. Engineers are kooks. There are exceptions, of course but, by and large, kooks.

Strange breed, they are....

 

[Larry Gude]

Strange breed, they are....

Can't do without them. Buddy of mine is an artist/musician who went on to get his PE and works at LANL. He is the nexus one, the irreplaceable link, a bridge between the two worlds.

 

[Gilligan]

No, there is not. Engineers are kooks. There are exceptions, of course but, by and large, kooks.

Great. :shrug:

 

[BadGirl]

It is my personal experience that the more formally educated a person is, the less social skills they have. Highly intelligent people tend to be fairly lacking in their social development, either by nature or circumstances of their being different from their peers. So it doesn't surprise me that the mechanic is personable, while the engineer is socially awkward. Which is fine and there's a place in this world for everyone.