Osteen as heretic?

[Sonsie]

Good lord, I have trouble believing anyone has the time/inclination to watch TV preachers much less argue about them. I always figured that, like the home shopping network, it was the choice of obese shut-ins everywhere. Guess I'm wrong. Hey, I know it's more wholesome than say...reruns of Will and Grace but at least that show will occasionally give you a chuckle.

 

[Marie]

So here's my question for the Christians:

Do you think you have to be miserable in your earthly life to get to Heaven? I'm thinking about Osteen's book "Your Best Life Now" and how Scallion seems to think it's bad to be happy and prosperous before you die. He made some quotes from the book, implying that it was bad to expect good things and think positively.

So I'm curious if you all think that's the way to salvation: being unhappy on earth? And do you think God wants you to be unhappy on earth?

No you dont know real joy till you know Christ! The joy of serving others and getting outside of yourself. (Joy comes from inside, happiness from the external) The peace that comes from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and when the hard times hit as they surely will, the faith to carry you through knowing that Gods in control. Everyone thinks that to be a Christian you have to give up on life to serve him, but thats not true, and you really dont start living till you do.

Thats not to be taken though as your best life now. The only ones smiling the whole way to the bank, are those making a business of a prosperity message.

 

[Marie]

So here's my question for the Christians:

Do you think you have to be miserable in your earthly life to get to Heaven? I'm thinking about Osteen's book "Your Best Life Now" and how Scallion seems to think it's bad to be happy and prosperous before you die. He made some quotes from the book, implying that it was bad to expect good things and think positively.

So I'm curious if you all think that's the way to salvation: being unhappy on earth? And do you think God wants you to be unhappy on earth?

No you dont know real joy till you know Christ! The joy of serving others and getting outside of yourself. (Joy comes from inside, happiness from the external) The peace that comes from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and when the hard times hit as they surely will, the faith to carry you through knowing that Gods in control. Everyone thinks that to be a Christian you have to give up on life to serve him, but thats not true, and you really dont start living till you do.

Thats not to be taken though as your best life now. The only ones smiling the whole way to the bank, are those making a business of a prosperity message.

 

[Xaquin44]

Thats not to be taken though as your best life now. The only ones smiling the whole way to the bank, are those making a business of a prosperity message.

that's right .... do it for the reward .... that's the ticket!

 

[vraiblonde]

Good lord, I have trouble believing anyone has the time/inclination to watch TV preachers much less argue about them. I always figured that, like the home shopping network, it was the choice of obese shut-ins everywhere. Guess I'm wrong. Hey, I know it's more wholesome than say...reruns of Will and Grace but at least that show will occasionally give you a chuckle.

Are you kidding? I'd rather watch Joel Osteen than just about anything else on TV (except for Food Network and History Channel). He's positive and upbeat, and at the end of his show you feel like you can take on the world.

 

[Sonsie]

Are you kidding? I'd rather watch Joel Osteen than just about anything else on TV (except for Food Network and History Channel). He's positive and upbeat, and at the end of his show you feel like you can take on the world.

I'll take your word for it, I'm kind of a weddings, funerals, and holidays kind of church person. I can't work up a lot of enthusiasm about the whole deal. Thankfully my hubby is more spiritually motivated and has started taking the kids to church on Sundays. I guess I'm gonna have to try and show more interest to keep them engaged in the future. I really enjoy sleeping in and having a quiet cuppa joe on those mornings though.

I'm kinda partial to HGTV and the Food Network myself.

 

[ItalianScallion]

What is your idea of a perfect life? Muslims want virgins and what-have-you - what do Christians want? And you, in particular? Describe your reward.
That's a serious question, btw, and I'm not being flip.

I believe you, but I'm not sure if you want the earthly "perfect life" or the heavenly one so I'll give you both. Right now the perfect life is what I'm living. I have enough money to live on, I help kids and adults, I try to teach others about Jesus, I have good health, lots of time and enough time for my own fun also. I'm not materialistic. I don't need a million dollars, a beach front home, 72 virgins, fancy cars or jewelry, etc. I have all I need and am content because I live to help others every day and not just myself. I believe there is no greater satisfaction than helping people in need.
As far as heaven goes, that will be the ultimate perfection. No sickness, no aging, no pains, sadness, jealousy or anger. Just happiness with God forever. We will be in a place that no one can fully imagine and there will never be any evil, harm or sin in there. We'll never be tired or hungry or in need of anything. Absolute perfect paradise.
So many think that happiness is all about being rich when it really isn't. If it was, then most Hollywood folks would stay together and rarely have all the problems that they have.
Back to Joel. As I said earlier, if you enjoy his teachings, then listen to him. But remember this: It's all about being saved, not just feeling good. If you listen to anyone and you have a great life but then you die and don't get to Heaven, you've lost everything. So that's why I go on about salvation so much here.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

Good lord, I have trouble believing anyone has the time/inclination to watch TV preachers .

...it does cut into my internet forum arguing time but I'm a sucker for good performers. Jimmy Swaggart would have made Motley Crue a better band.

 

[ItalianScallion]

...silly. I'm curious if the detractors of Osteen have ever actually watched or listened to him. His message isn't "Think happy thoughts and you'll be rich and your furnace will never break down."
He offers hope to people with money problems, drug and alcohol problems, problems with stress and home life and clearly, to me, is saying to folks that faith is a way to regain control, to stop doing wrong and start doing right and if that is the work of a heretic, it seems very much like arguing one must run marathons from day one as opposed to building up to it and unless you are running marathons from day you are not only not welcome but wrong.

As I said earlier, I watched him every Sunday night for the first year he was on TV. I'm not saying that he is a bad preacher or shouldn't be watched. I just caution people that some of what he says has been taken wrong by people and can mislead you if you're not careful. Christianity is NOT about earthly riches or prosperity, BUT you can be a Christian and be very wealthy too as long as you know where it came from and use it to help others. Look at Mother Theresa. She was one of the best Christian examples out there but she lived in poverty most of her life. Now she has a very high place in Heaven because of her earthly unselfish lifestyle. So, again, all I'm saying here is that if you feel good and have a great life but are not saved, then what good is it? Enjoy Joel, feel good and try to think positive but, unless you're following Jesus every day, it was all for nothing.

 

[Sonsie]

...it does cut into my internet forum arguing time but I'm a sucker for good performers. Jimmy Swaggart would have made Motley Crue a better band.

Now there is a visual. I can just picture the old dude in makeup, spandex, and a fuzzy bleached 'do.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's the point...

I just caution people that some of what he says has been taken wrong by people and can mislead you if you're not careful. Christianity is NOT about earthly riches or prosperity,

...at issue; The guy I've seen doesn't do that. He doesn't say "Pray and God will give you a promotion." He says "Get your act together and maybe good things will follow. God wants you to do that."

You guys are like a father standing over kids with training wheels who, the moment they show some joy at getting the hang of it you instantly rip the training wheels off and thunder "Well, training wheels is NOT the same as riding a bike!"

I ask is the goal to make the kid never want to ride again and the answer comes back "Well, bike riding is bike riding and that's it. If they're not doing it like we do then it isn't bike riding and that's not us saying that. It's the bike."

I say this as an agnostic fascinated at watching people actively playing gate keeper over something they claim they want for everyone to be part of.

 

[Larry Gude]

Hey...

Now there is a visual. I can just picture the old dude in makeup, spandex, and a fuzzy bleached 'do.

...you look at some of these old bands, the Stones, Crue, all of them, doing reunion and 'last' good bye tours, how far out of place would ol' Jim actually be?

 

[ItalianScallion]

...at issue; The guy I've seen doesn't do that. He doesn't say "Pray and God will give you a promotion."

Actually on p5 of his book he does say that. See my quote to Vrai on the bottom of post #131

You guys are like a father standing over kids with training wheels who, the moment they show some joy at getting the hang of it you instantly rip the training wheels off and thunder "Well, training wheels is NOT the same as riding a bike!" I say this as an agnostic fascinated at watching people actively playing gate keeper over something they claim they want for everyone to be part of.

Larry, as an agnostic, by definition you are searching for evidence to believe in God. I, as a Christian, have found God and am commanded to show & guide others to Him. Commanded, not suggested. In the search for God the devil wants to confuse and direct people away from Him. He knows if he suggests harshly to avoid God, many won't. He is very subtle in his ways. There are many hotels, restaurants, churches and businesses out there but not all are good. To the untrained eye many look good. Through experience, many come to see what they're really about. Ever go with a company that looked good on TV or in the phone book, only to have them be really bad? I have and I wished I had someone tell me about them before I used them. Sadly, the same goes for preachers. While Joel is a great motivational speaker, he does have a few quirks to beware of, and as a trained Christian, I am commanded to point them out. I never said avoid him completely but I have said that about others.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

Larry, as an agnostic, by definition you are searching for evidence to believe in God.

...actually no. I find the debates, sometimes, very interesting exercises in human behavior. There is all the evidence one would ever need of the existence of God were one to have faith along with bountiful evidence of more human rationals for organized faith. I choose to not believe. I simply, as an agnostic, claim to not actually know the unknowable whereas atheists claim to 'know' as do the devout. To me, that is impossible to know either way. So, if the definition of 'agnostic' is 'in search of' then I am not an agnostic.

If Osteen says "Pray to God and he will give you money" that is pretty bad. I just haven't heard or read him saying that which is not to say I've watched enough to be an authority nor have a read a single word of his. So, I'll gladly take your word for it.

Again, for him to be called a heretic by a respectable authority on a national program is what got my attention.

 

[ItalianScallion]

There is all the evidence one would ever need of the existence of God were one to have faith along with bountiful evidence of more human rationals for organized faith. I choose to not believe. I simply, as an agnostic, claim to not actually know the unknowable whereas atheists claim to 'know' as do the devout. To me, that is impossible to know either way. So, if the definition of 'agnostic' is 'in search of' then I am not an agnostic.

Ok, I respect that. Your definition of agnostic is a more complete one than mine. I say that they are searching because they do believe in the existence of God but they claim they can't know Him fully. That isn't a bad place to be in life because you're open to information and not closed minded I hope. Just for my information, why do you say that "it is impossible to know either way"?

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

, why do you say that "it is impossible to know either way"?

...by definition, faith in God is faith in the unknowable, right? I mean, you, personally, 'know' God however you know Him; scripture, how you feel, how your mind works yet they are all acts of faith, what you believe based on what you read and think and feel. Many claim an even deeper 'knowledge' stating that He has talked to them, revealed himself to them, etc, but, of course, all of that is, again, based on the same things; how one reads, thinks and feels.

You KNOW, as a matter of fact, that you have a computer mouse in your right hand and you are sitting in a chair, at a desk and so on, knowable, seeing-able, feel-able in a factual, physical sense. No one need to read books or be talked into or told about faith in computers, desks and chairs being real.

An atheist can not KNOW there is no God no matter how certain they feel and think in the same way you can not actually know there is God. Thus, both are matters of faith and that's fine. I am not trying to be pedantic or argumentative by saying that. Far from it. One of the beauty's of faith, to me, is that it IS faith.

Atheists are the real searchers, in my view, because they seem to need to claim knowing an unknowable and THAT is an uncertain way to live. Those of faith are searching as well difference being they freely and by definition, say so.

In any event, that is my view.

 

[godsbutterfly]

So here's my question for the Christians:

Do you think you have to be miserable in your earthly life to get to Heaven? I'm thinking about Osteen's book "Your Best Life Now" and how Scallion seems to think it's bad to be happy and prosperous before you die. He made some quotes from the book, implying that it was bad to expect good things and think positively.

So I'm curious if you all think that's the way to salvation: being unhappy on earth? And do you think God wants you to be unhappy on earth?

No, Vrai, I don't think God wants me to be miserable here on this earth. I believe he's like any Father who wants the best for me but He has a set of rules called the 10 Commandments and my actions will have consequences. He was upfront and honest about it when He gave me free will. He loves me unconditionally and this is what he said:

Jeremiah 29: 11-13
"For I know the plans I have for you,' says the Lord, 'plans for well-being and not for trouble, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will look for Me and find Me, when you look for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,' says the Lord. "

 

[Bustem' Down]

No, Vrai, I don't think God wants me to be miserable here on this earth. I believe he's like any Father who wants the best for me but He has a set of rules called the 10 Commandments and my actions will have consequences. He was upfront and honest about it when He gave me free will. He loves me unconditionally and this is what he said:

Jeremiah 29: 11-13
"For I know the plans I have for you,' says the Lord, 'plans for well-being and not for trouble, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will look for Me and find Me, when you look for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,' says the Lord. "

That's all well and good, but what about Christians who live in thier own personal hell on earth. No food, barely a roof over thier head, living in constant fear etc. In reality, you don't have much of a miserable life solely based on where you happen to be born, not because following commandments or anything.

 

[ItalianScallion]

...by definition, faith in God is faith in the unknowable, right? I mean, you, personally, 'know' God however you know Him; scripture, how you feel, how your mind works yet they are all acts of faith, what you believe based on what you read and think and feel. Many claim an even deeper 'knowledge' stating that He has talked to them, revealed himself to them, etc, but, of course, all of that is, again, based on the same things; how one reads, thinks and feels.
An atheist can not KNOW there is no God no matter how certain they feel and think in the same way you can not actually know there is God.
Atheists are the real searchers, in my view, because they seem to need to claim knowing an unknowable and THAT is an uncertain way to live.

Well, I'm still uncertain about the word unknowable. While we can't know everything about God, we can know a lot about Him. Sure, I can't take you in my car and bring you to God and say here He is but that doesn't mean He is unknowable or doesn't exist.
Atheists have chosen to ignore the clear evidence of God's creation for whatever reason. It takes more faith NOT to believe in my opinion.
People knew "Kilroy was here" by the evidence of the little girls round belly.
We know of historical events (though we weren't there) from the evidence left behind by those that were.
Although many people say they need physical evidence before they'd believe in God, I still can't understand why so many ignore the physical evidence of God, namely the creation. That's one of the many reasons why I believe in God completely. Thanks Larry

 

[godsbutterfly]

That's all well and good, but what about Christians who live in thier own personal hell on earth. No food, barely a roof over thier head, living in constant fear etc. In reality, you don't have much of a miserable life solely based on where you happen to be born, not because following commandments or anything.

I already did all of that and if not for my belief in God and my kids I would have given it all up. No, I wasn't happy and singing the whold time all of that was happening but it was all that kept me sane and made me keep on going. I am just now in a place of peace and happiness in my life where I can be relaxed.