Paying students...

[SamSpade]

5. Here's a novel idea: Instead of wasting money to get people to conform to our archaic education system, why don't we spend the money to revamp it? Why don't we actually teach people to think and work, rather know a bunch of garbage they'll never need? Remember all those music classes? Are they doing you much good now?

I've said this for years - I know boatloads of engineers and programmers for whom their language, social studies and arts classes not only did them no good, they don't remember or use a bit of it.

I think the idea of being "well-rounded" in your education when you're studying to be a doctor or engineer is kind of stupid. Try to imagine the same idea being applied in medical school - you're taking years of study, but some hotshot thinks you need to know some *ART* to be a well-rounded doctor.

So you don't call this level of education a BA or BS - or even an AA - but call it what you want. I think it's high time someone can emerge from an education they CAN AFFORD with the skills they need. Why should someone be required to spend thousands of their education dollars on classes they will absolutely never ever use?

Case in point: When I first worked as an engineer, our two best designers had no degree - they each had some military training, but they knew everything about circuit design, and I guarantee - they didn't have to take writing and arts and social sciences and history and music to be the best engineer in the company.

If we want to make education affordable, there's an area we could try - let them get an approved education that actually prepares them for a job, rather than satisfy someone else's idea of what it's supposed to be.

 

[SamSpade]

BTW - we're gonna get creamed in engineering and science by the likes of many of these nations even if they don't put as significant a percentage of their youth in school -


Because there's so damned many of them. Is it any wonder that we're getting beat by two countries whose combined population is nearly half the world?

 

[PsyOps]

Would you be in favor of paying students to take and pass science classes?

I guess getting A's and resulting scholarships isn't good enough.

Actually, I believe if we pay them enough they could retire at graduation.

 

[Bustem' Down]

If we put more people in science and math fields, there will be no one to fill the vacancies in the crap jobs that getting rid of the illegals will leave. I say let them fail, because I need someone to mow my lawn.

 

[vraiblonde]

Case in point: When I first worked as an engineer, our two best designers had no degree - they each had some military training, but they knew everything about circuit design, and I guarantee - they didn't have to take writing and arts and social sciences and history and music to be the best engineer in the company.

Which brings up another point:

I've heard umpteen former military people with very good, but specific, skills say they need a degree to move up in their company.

Why?

If you know what you're doing already, why would you need a piece of paper that says so? And wouldn't you think companies would be more interested in someone who's actually been hands-on working in their field for the last (at least) four years, rather than someone who's been in a classroom learning about it?

I'll be honest - I think college is a scam. I know far too many people who were good at what they did and made a successful career without college, and too many college grads who are tending bar. When I worked at Channel 10, I was practically the only one there without a college degree, and I made as much or more money than the rest did.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

...as of today, 11/20/06, 63% think our schools need alot of work but 80% are opposed to financial incentives for students.

Interesting.

 

[vraiblonde]

...as of today, 11/20/06, 63% think our schools need alot of work but 80% are opposed to financial incentives for students.

Interesting.

Not interesting, or surprising, at all. If we're conservatives, we know that throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away.

 

[Larry Gude]

Now that's interesting too...

Not interesting, or surprising, at all. If we're conservatives, we know that throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away.

...if the problem is students learning and we spend money on seminars and
and beaurcacy heavy systems, then I agree; money ain't helping to well answer is our children learning.

I am arguing if motivating the students themselves is perhaps a viable solution and if money may be a good idea.

At base is the ability to become a productive member of society and, at minimum, at least not becoming a burden. How come using financial insentives to get kids to learn better...in order to get a better job...to make more money...is a bad idea?

 

[vraiblonde]

At base is the ability to become a productive member of society and, at minimum, at least not becoming a burden.

Everyone already has the ability to become a productive member of society and not a burden. Motivation comes from within - you either want to make something of yourself, or you don't care.

So let's say we go to some inner city school, with an attendance rate of 40%. We say, "Hey, you FFAs, we'll give you $5000 to stay in school and pass all your classes. You'll get the money upon graduation. How about it?"

I can almost guarantee you that only a handful of kids would take you up on it, and only a handful of those would fulfill the requirement.

 

[Chain729]

...if the problem is students learning and we spend money on seminars and
and beaurcacy heavy systems, then I agree; money ain't helping to well answer is our children learning.

I am arguing if motivating the students themselves is perhaps a viable solution and if money may be a good idea.

At base is the ability to become a productive member of society and, at minimum, at least not becoming a burden. How come using financial insentives to get kids to learn better...in order to get a better job...to make more money...is a bad idea?

Paying someone to do something that they should be doing anyway, creates more harm than good. If I lived in a development with an HOA and I never cut my grass because I didn't want to, would they pay me to do it? Or would they inact a negative consequence?

The students are definately part of the problem, but I don't believe throwing money at a dead horse is going to make it perform. As a matter of fact, I don't suggest you'll get far by starting with the students.

IMO, we should fix the school system, then worry about those in it. If we give them something worth doing, without a lot of wasted effort, time and money, and judge their performance by what they really walk away with vs. how much homework they do, maybe they'll be more inclined to go along. Maybe, you'll find intelligent, science-oriented people, who otherwise would've never attended school. Face it, school doesn't work well for the logical.

 

[Chain729]

Here's another question: What's the point of motivating people to go to schools that don't effectively teach what you really need to know?

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

Everyone already has the ability to become a productive member of society and not a burden. Motivation comes from within - you either want to make something of yourself, or you don't care.

So let's say we go to some inner city school, with an attendance rate of 40%. We say, "Hey, you FFAs, we'll give you $5000 to stay in school and pass all your classes. You'll get the money upon graduation. How about it?"

I can almost guarantee you that only a handful of kids would take you up on it, and only a handful of those would fulfill the requirement.

...so, if everyone has the ability, why are we spending $10k per kid per year, $500 billion dollars, and more than anotehr $500 billion a year on welfare? Are we happy with the results of each? Do we just keep doing what we're doing?

 

[vraiblonde]

Here's another question: What's the point of motivating people to go to schools that don't effectively teach what you really need to know?

That's a good point.

Inner city schools don't need classes on conjugating a verb or determining the length of a hypotenuse. They should be teaching more life skills, like how to present yourself at a job interview, and how to balance a checkbook. In fact, it's not just inner city schools - ALL students could benefit from more everyday education.

Make specialized classes something they go on to from there. Sort of like college, where you get your core classes out of the way your freshman year, then declare a major and focus on that.

 

[vraiblonde]

...so, if everyone has the ability, why are we spending $10k per kid per year, $500 billion dollars, and more than anotehr $500 billion a year on welfare?

You already know the answer to that - we do it because we're lazy and don't demand accountability from our school system. Andrea already told you how this works - educating the children is a distant second to lobbying for days off, complaining about pay and supporting the Teacher's Union.

 

[Larry Gude]

They 'should' be doing?

Paying someone to do something that they should be doing anyway, creates more harm than good.

What 'should' students be doing? Why are they going to school in the first place? "School' as we know it is an artificial environment in that is designed to do what; allow a young person to grow and learn and become socialized in order to enter a world that works on money, yet the concept of that, money, can't be used to get you there?

 

[Larry Gude]

So...

You already know the answer to that - we do it because we're lazy and don't demand accountability from our school system. Andrea already told you how this works - educating the children is a distant second to lobbying for days off, complaining about pay and supporting the Teacher's Union.

...in keeping with that, do you not see an avenue for change that invloves...financial incentives? I mean, the system we have has produced the people we have and what and how we do things, right?

 

[vraiblonde]

...in keeping with that, do you not see an avenue for change that invloves...financial incentives?

Give me a scenario. Because right now what it appears you're saying is to give the donkey the carrot, then say, "Okay, donkey - you got your carrot, now let's go."

 

[Larry Gude]

I think...

Here's another question: What's the point of motivating people to go to schools that don't effectively teach what you really need to know?

...or at least part of the point I'm trying to make is that money plays far to small a role in schooling as it is.

We live in this azzbackward society where it's all about 'the people' and yet we don't want 'the people' being responsible for controling their own retirements, health insurance or...schooling.

So, we pack everyone off to school, herd them actually, and that's it; we make them, teach them, to be part of a herd for their lives.

A grocery store that isn't effective loses business. A gas station that doesn't do well in pumping gas loses money. A bank. A bakery. A dress shop. Where does the motivation for good schooling come from if everyone who has a financial incentive gets paid anyway? Especially in areas where the parenting isn't there?

 

[jazz lady]

Which brings up another point:

I've heard umpteen former military people with very good, but specific, skills say they need a degree to move up in their company.

Why?

If you know what you're doing already, why would you need a piece of paper that says so? And wouldn't you think companies would be more interested in someone who's actually been hands-on working in their field for the last (at least) four years, rather than someone who's been in a classroom learning about it?

I don't know how private sector works as I've always worked for the government in one form or another, but a lot of contracts require college degrees for specific positions especially in the technology fields. After I got my AA and some experience under my belt, I found I needed a Bachelor's degree in order to fill certain positions so I went back and got it. It's a vicious cycle around here: you need experience to get in the door but you can't get the experience without a degree.

I'll be honest - I think college is a scam. I know far too many people who were good at what they did and made a successful career without college, and too many college grads who are tending bar. When I worked at Channel 10, I was practically the only one there without a college degree, and I made as much or more money than the rest did.

I tend to agree. There is a lot of stuff I considered "fluff" I had to take in order to get a degree and I know I will never, ever, EVER use any of it. Real life experience taught me much more than any college class ever did.

 

[vraiblonde]

We live in this azzbackward society where it's all about 'the people' and yet we don't want 'the people' being responsible for controling their own retirements, health insurance or...schooling.

You're making a case for privatizing schools, which was roundly squashed by those who like it just the way it is - the Teacher's Unions and the Democrats they fund.