Paying students...

[vraiblonde]

She ONLY gets her check if Jr. is doing well.

I've seen this movie before, so I'll just post the spoiler:

Ma takes the money and spends it on crack. Jr continues to hook school and run with his homies. Liberals are outraged and say we obviously didn't give Momma enough money.

 

[kwillia]

I cannot buy into the thought of paying parents to do their job...

 

[vraiblonde]

Having said that isn't it fair to say you, your particulars and history are not the norm?

*ahem* That's the second time you've had to say that to someone.

What Chain is saying is that there will be people who can rise above their background and upbringing, and those who just flat can't, no matter what you do to try and help them.

You could have given my Mom $5000 to motivate me and make sure I graduated from school, then point to adult me as a success story. But, honestly, she'd have gotten money for nothing because she didn't have anything to do with it.

Conversely, you could have given a MILLION dollars to some of my cohorts' parents, and they'd have still ended up a drunken slob who can't punctuate.

If money were a universal motivator, *everyone* would have better jobs and higher education. What you need to do is find something that makes kids feel as good as getting high and having sex. THEN you'll be able to motivate them.

 

[Chain729]

*ahem* That's the second time you've had to say that to someone.

What Chain is saying is that there will be people who can rise above their background and upbringing, and those who just flat can't, no matter what you do to try and help them.

You could have given my Mom $5000 to motivate me and make sure I graduated from school, then point to adult me as a success story. But, honestly, she'd have gotten money for nothing because she didn't have anything to do with it.

Conversely, you could have given a MILLION dollars to some of my cohorts' parents, and they'd have still ended up a drunken slob who can't punctuate.

If money were a universal motivator, *everyone* would have better jobs and higher education. What you need to do is find something that makes kids feel as good as getting high and having sex. THEN you'll be able to motivate them.

Pretty much my point. Money or no money, odds are, they'll end up in the same spot.

 

[Chain729]

...you get bonus cred for been there done that.

Having said that isn't it fair to say you, your particulars and history are not the norm?

We all talk a big game when it comes to social Darwinism and yet I think it's realistic to say that that will NOT be the approach taken. So, my point; if we're gonna spend it anyway, law enforcement, welfare, societal decay, what about a proactive, reward performance plan instead of the reactive, performance neutral or even malignant system we have now?

You're right; I'm not the norm. That was my point. Even with the added help, the others are still in the gutter.

I think we both agree that the current ROI is disgusting. And yes, I agree that the gov't won't stop throwing money away in my lifetime. I think what we disagree on, is how to improve the ROI.

It appears that you'd rather start with the individuals, which the gov't has no control over. I'd rather start with the school system, which the gov't does have control over. I don't see how it could be cheaper to make an additional machine, instead of adjusting the one in place.

 

[Larry Gude]

You made...

I cannot buy into the thought of paying parents to do their job...

...a funny!

 

[Larry Gude]

Hey...

Conversely, you could have given a MILLION dollars to some of my cohorts' parents, and they'd have still ended up a drunken slob who can't punctuate.

If money were a universal motivator, *everyone* would have better jobs and higher education. What you need to do is find something that makes kids feel as good as getting high and having sex. THEN you'll be able to motivate them.

...my entire point is that something can and should be done from the standpoint of better education AND we're spending the money anyway.

The reasoning behind looking at 'norms' is to say that a given program or idea will or won't work for a large majority. I offer no silver bullet or magic pill; I'm talking over all.


So, I'm a voting kinda person. What, if anything, should we do?

 

[Larry Gude]

Hey...

It appears that you'd rather start with the individuals, which the gov't has no control over. I'd rather start with the school system, which the gov't does have control over. I don't see how it could be cheaper to make an additional machine, instead of adjusting the one in place.

...I'm just talking here. The original point was that if we, the people, through our elected representatives, think it in the common interest to promote higher education in greater numbers in math and science, how ought we go about that?

Maybe it's a bad idea. I do know that when vouchers to pay for private school makes its way into parents hands, their kids go to private schools.
And these vouchers range in the low thousands of dollars, $2-3,000, to get kids out of public schools that spend over three times that amount.

I'm just looking at the power of capitalism as a possible solution.

 

[Ken King]

The original point was that if we, the people, through our elected representatives, think it in the common interest to promote higher education in greater numbers in math and science, how ought we go about that?

Simple, by providing more scholarship funding within those disciplines. Make it easier for those that have a desire to achieve it without forcing a desire onto those that don't want to be successful.

 

[Larry Gude]

So...

Simple, by providing more scholarship funding within those disciplines. Make it easier for those that have a desire to achieve it without forcing a desire onto those that don't want to be successful.

...give them the money to take the classes. Just don't pay them.


Got it.

 

[Ken King]

...give them the money to take the classes. Just don't pay them.


Got it.

And it would be for those that have already shown an ability to succeed (completing high school). Make the incintive be to follow the discipline and not just pass a required high school course.

 

[vraiblonde]

So, I'm a voting kinda person. What, if anything, should we do?

Other than completely overhaul our societal structure, eliminate negative role-models from our pop culture, stop rewarding poor life choices and cease the glamorization of the insane and unsavory?

 

[vraiblonde]

And it would be for those that have already shown an ability to succeed (completing high school). Make the incintive be to follow the discipline and not just pass a required high school course.

Many colleges already do that. If you're a low-income kid who was dedicated enough to pull decent grades and graduate, they'll give you a nice little financial aid package, plus set you up with low interest loans for the remainder. And there are actually some colleges that will give you a free ride.

Any high school kid interested in continued education knows this. The ones who don't know about it don't care. So why waste money on them?

 

[Chain729]

Other than completely overhaul our societal structure, eliminate negative role-models from our pop culture, stop rewarding poor life choices and cease the glamorization of the insane and unsavory?

Which brings up the next question for Larry... Are we talking what we flat-out should do, or what we can do that is possible in this lifetime?

 

[Larry Gude]

Everyone...

Which brings up the next question for Larry... Are we talking what we flat-out should do, or what we can do that is possible in this lifetime?

...is going to have different opinions on what 'should do' means, but I'm happy to discuss 'should' v. 'possible'. If I wasn't an optimist, I wouldn't even have started the thread!

 

[PsyOps]

I cannot buy into the thought of paying parents to do their job...

Could mean you get a bigger allowance. Think about it...

 

[bcp]

I'm shocked at the opposition to this idea, officially paying for achievement, and I'd love some dialogue on this.

People do get payed for achievement.

faill all your classes and dont go to college, end up making the minimum wage. Or, welfare.

pass all of your classes, go to college and do well, get paid 6 figures to sit and watch the minimum wage workers make you money.

see how it works?

you do get paid for your education, its just a delayed payment.

 

[Nicole_in_somd]

...common sense?


Adult; Do this well and I'll pay you well.

Kid: Outta my way!

Some of my kids are very interested in what they want to do, what they enjoy, dance, sports, drama, singing vs. good old fashioned financial motivation. Of course, every one of them so far has thought a job was cool as all hell once they needed gas money.

I'm shocked at the opposition to this idea, officially paying for achievement, and I'd love some dialogue on this.

We have a society with far too many lawyers, doctors and Wall Street types, yes? Why is that? Because after their first two years as psychology majors it dawns on them they're gonna have to earn a living some day, right? So, most kids are motivated by money sooner or later, yes?

So, we WANT more scientists and less lawyers, yes? We're paying for what we have now and we don't like it, why not pay for what we'd prefer.

We spend MORE money per year on education, $500 BILLION, per year, than we've spent on the entire war on terrah since 9/11. We spend about $10,000 per year per student for about 50 million students, k-12, for the education system we have.

We spend about the same, per year, $500 billion, on what most people think of as 'welfare'. What impact would better education have on that?

How about crime? Would it be dramatically reduced with higher education?

How about health care? Do better educated people take better care of themselves?

When most of us get a job, what's the first thing companies do? Spend more money on training your azz. From the use of a lawn mower, to a deep fryer to a CRAY computer. I read an editorial, years ago, that said everything there is to be said about effort vs. results;

The Post had just installed a new computer system and wanted everyone to learn how to use it; from e mail to inter office messages, to group meetings, sharing spreadsheets, so on and so forth. The company that installed it got paid to make sure each employee knew how to use it. The goal wasn't to test each person and see how well they paid attention or what they absorbed; they got paid to make sure everyone knew how to use it; results.

School tests your effort, which has nothing to do with results. While it's true that effort is a good thing, it in no way means that student X will be better at the application of, the job of math or science or raking leaves than student Y just because student X got a better grade; all it means is he may learn quicker or tests better. Or he got more support at home. Or got breakfast every day. Or got enough sleep.

How many people excel far past their better test taking and retention counterparts once the real world is entered?

Imagine, if you will, where parents have a direct financial motivation to support their kids getting a better education. Imagine a world where, instead of complaining that other people don't care enough about their kids education which results in all these barbarians running around, we've got more kids who are capitalists replete with all the motivations that that implies; civility, societal awareness, etc.

Would paying kids to take better classes, and succeed at them, result in a society with less crime, better health and happier, more productive citizens at less overall public expense?

I have to agree with you on this, of course they are paid when they have passing grades. Why not? We expect to get paid for our education and experince in the work field, many employers pay for their employee's to go to school. So my answer would be yes.

 

[Nicole_in_somd]

I'll be honest - I think college is a scam. I know far too many people who were good at what they did and made a successful career without college, and too many college grads who are tending bar. When I worked at Channel 10, I was practically the only one there without a college degree, and I made as much or more money than the rest did.

I do not think college is a scam. I think it is what you put in to it and how you use it, combined with your ability to do the job.

 

[Railroad]

No, I would be in favor of making parents raise their kids in such a way that the kids are willing to take the harder classes because they want to someday have a job that does not entail asking, "you want fries with that?"