Paying students...

[Chain729]

What 'should' students be doing? Why are they going to school in the first place? "School' as we know it is an artificial environment in that is designed to do what; allow a young person to grow and learn and become socialized in order to enter a world that works on money, yet the concept of that, money, can't be used to get you there?

They should be doing well. Are you going to suggest paying people for successive years of not getting arrested to?

 

[Larry Gude]

I'm not sure...

Give me a scenario. Because right now what it appears you're saying is to give the donkey the carrot, then say, "Okay, donkey - you got your carrot, now let's go."

...so work with me, here.

Let's say we have hell hole school #666 in a bad part of town.

The school is public, so, it has it's public school code of conduct and expectations; you should be able to read this book in 1st grade, do these many math problems, be able to identify this, understand that. I'm thining we can come up with a test that says this kid, at this age, should be at this point education wise, this point behavior wise at 1st quarter, 2nd, 3rd and graduation to second grade. Kinda like it was when I was in first grade. Agreed?

So, instead of single mom working for $10 an hour, bringing home $7 or getting paid x dollars in welfare, single mom now has an incentive, let's call it
$1,000 a month that she gets if the kid is on track. She needs to be seeing to it that he's getting enough sleep, fed properly and worked with at home.

 

[Chain729]

...or at least part of the point I'm trying to make is that money plays far to small a role in schooling as it is.

We live in this azzbackward society where it's all about 'the people' and yet we don't want 'the people' being responsible for controling their own retirements, health insurance or...schooling.

So, we pack everyone off to school, herd them actually, and that's it; we make them, teach them, to be part of a herd for their lives.

A grocery store that isn't effective loses business. A gas station that doesn't do well in pumping gas loses money. A bank. A bakery. A dress shop. Where does the motivation for good schooling come from if everyone who has a financial incentive gets paid anyway? Especially in areas where the parenting isn't there?

They are getting paid. They're being given a shot at careers they couldn't normally have, and a chance to make more money in that career than they could otherwise have (though not every company works the same and some people earn the same or more regardless).

Our society is increasingly becoming "Give me! I'm entitled to..." and it drives me nuts. Everyone wants everything their way and they want it now. Paying them, IMO, only encourages that. So, that's not teaching them wisdom, patience and long-term thinking (like retirement), that's teaching them greed, entitlement, and short-term thinking.

 

[Larry Gude]

You've made youself...

They should be doing well. Are you going to suggest paying people for successive years of not getting arrested to?

...quite clear; in a society that pays under educated nearly worthless people to sit at home and collect welfare, you have no interest in doing the same thing, providing financial interest in the stage of life that may educate them enough to not be in that position.

I am arguing for pro-action instead of re-action.

As far as jail, if it costs $40,000 a year to jail someone, it is cheaper to pay them $20,000 to stay out of trouble.

The fact is that we have an underclass. These folks have similar backgrounds; broken homes, no or poor support systems, drug problems, violence. They tent to perpetuate the cycle.

If we're paying for it anyway, is there a way to pay less for it when it makes a difference?

 

[Larry Gude]

That's interesting...

They are getting paid. They're being given a shot at careers they couldn't normally have, and a chance to make more money in that career than they could otherwise have (though not every company works the same and some people earn the same or more regardless).

...and this explains the 'success' rate of our schools? They're already getting paid, yet 60% have voted they're not getting paid enough, to use your analogy, in that the schools need a lot of work?

 

[vraiblonde]

single mom now has an incentive, let's call it
$1,000 a month that she gets if the kid is on track. She needs to be seeing to it that he's getting enough sleep, fed properly and worked with at home.

How is that different than our current welfare system?

 

[Larry Gude]

So...

Our society is increasingly becoming "Give me! I'm entitled to..." and it drives me nuts. Everyone wants everything their way and they want it now. Paying them, IMO, only encourages that. So, that's not teaching them wisdom, patience and long-term thinking (like retirement), that's teaching them greed, entitlement, and short-term thinking.

...the system we have is giving us the society we have and yet a radically different approach is a bad idea?

If what you're doing isn't working...

 

[vraiblonde]

As far as jail, if it costs $40,000 a year to jail someone, it is cheaper to pay them $20,000 to stay out of trouble.

Ask the UN how this worked for them regarding Iraq.

 

[Larry Gude]

Maybe it's not...

How is that different than our current welfare system?

...different.

On the one hand, mom has a job to go to and isn't really giving the kid the time and attention they need. Or mom is sitting at home and is getting paid anyway regardless of how the kid does in school. Where's the motivation? She gets her check regardless of how Jr. is doing.

On the other hand, welfare is replaced by the necessity to see to the kids schooling. She ONLY gets her check if Jr. is doing well.

How's that?

 

[Chain729]

...so work with me, here.

Let's say we have hell hole school #666 in a bad part of town.

The school is public, so, it has it's public school code of conduct and expectations; you should be able to read this book in 1st grade, do these many math problems, be able to identify this, understand that. I'm thining we can come up with a test that says this kid, at this age, should be at this point education wise, this point behavior wise at 1st quarter, 2nd, 3rd and graduation to second grade. Kinda like it was when I was in first grade. Agreed?

So, instead of single mom working for $10 an hour, bringing home $7 or getting paid x dollars in welfare, single mom now has an incentive, let's call it
$1,000 a month that she gets if the kid is on track. She needs to be seeing to it that he's getting enough sleep, fed properly and worked with at home.

If she won't take care of kid, yank her damn welfare and her kid.

If she can't, by all means give her the tools, but it looks like she won't.

 

[Larry Gude]

I assume...

Ask the UN how this worked for them regarding Iraq.

...you're talking about Oil for Koffi?

 

[Larry Gude]

And then...

If she won't take care of kid, yank her damn welfare and her kid.

...what?

What did people do when we instituted welfare solutions that said 'you get more money per kid if you don't have a husband'?

Women started ditching the men in order to get more money. The idea was that women wouldn't be financially stuck in abusive marriages. Well, I think it backfired.

All I'm looking for is a way to use money to good effect that we're already using to ill effect.

 

[Chain729]

...and this explains the 'success' rate of our schools? They're already getting paid, yet 60% have voted they're not getting paid enough, to use your analogy, in that the schools need a lot of work?

I think the schools aren't giving enough in what they teach.

On the other hand, looking at job openings in my field and similiar fields, most corporations don't give a damn about that- they just want the piece of paper.

 

[Chain729]

...the system we have is giving us the society we have and yet a radically different approach is a bad idea?

If what you're doing isn't working...

...do something different. That, I agree with. However, I don't believe throwing money at a dead horse is going to increase its productivity. I suggest getting a new horse.

 

[Larry Gude]

Please clarify...

I think the schools aren't giving enough in what they teach.

...not sure I understand what you are saying here.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

...do something different. That, I agree with. However, I don't believe throwing money at a dead horse is going to increase its productivity. I suggest getting a new horse.

...if paying students/parents to successfully take advantage of public school, advantages that I think will pay off for the individual and society down the road, in throwing money at a dead horse, who is the dead horse, the student?

Where is the new horse in your suggestion?

 

[Chain729]

...quite clear; in a society that pays under educated nearly worthless people to sit at home and collect welfare, you have no interest in doing the same thing, providing financial interest in the stage of life that may educate them enough to not be in that position.

I am arguing for pro-action instead of re-action.

As far as jail, if it costs $40,000 a year to jail someone, it is cheaper to pay them $20,000 to stay out of trouble.

The fact is that we have an underclass. These folks have similar backgrounds; broken homes, no or poor support systems, drug problems, violence. They tent to perpetuate the cycle.

If we're paying for it anyway, is there a way to pay less for it when it makes a difference?

Here's the thing: been there, done that.

First off, I come from a broken home. I also have an emotional disorder and a bit of a temper. A few months after I turned 17 I was hospitalized for a violent manic episode and consequently thrown out of my mom and step father's house.

Somebody from a program for kids like I was came and said they would feed and house me while I finished high school and even up until I became stable enough to live on my own. They promised to teach all of the things that my parent's didn't and help me to reach my goals. All that it would cost me was half of my pay check and me following a few rules. Like Johnny 5 screaming "Input! Input!" I went for it.

6 months later, I was high as a kite and worse off then I started (though I did graduate). I saw myself being held-back, asked to follow rules that didn't do crap and not being taught anything. So, I left and moved in with another family member until I found somewhere else to go- which I could've done from the start. 5 years later, I have a career going, I recently bought a house, I've solved quite a bit of my anger problem and I haven't had a major episode since.

The others who stayed are either still on the street or in prison last I checked. I thrived, not because of the social program, but in spite of it. I didn't better myself because of gov't help, I bettered myself because I wanted to. I looked my options and decided that I didn't want to be a drain on the economy. Had I stayed, I doubt I'd be where I am today.

Also, seeing people in Sec 8, on food stamps, etc. I've never seen one of them that will ever amount to anything more. Why? 2 reaons: 1) They aren't held accountable for bettering themselves and 2) When they lose gov't assistance, they just find someone else to mooch off of.

So, from first-hand experience, throwing money at a dead horse, in hopes that it will improve performance is foolish.

 

[Chain729]

...not sure I understand what you are saying here.

I don't see schools teaching much other than how to memorize information, how to pick C, and that doing homework equals a better grade. I'd rather they taught you how to survive outside of those brick walls. Some of the things that Vrai mentioned would be a good start.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

So, from first-hand experience, throwing money at a dead horse, in hopes that it will improve performance is foolish.

...you get bonus cred for been there done that.

Having said that isn't it fair to say you, your particulars and history are not the norm?

We all talk a big game when it comes to social Darwinism and yet I think it's realistic to say that that will NOT be the approach taken. So, my point; if we're gonna spend it anyway, law enforcement, welfare, societal decay, what about a proactive, reward performance plan instead of the reactive, performance neutral or even malignant system we have now?

 

[Chain729]

...if paying students/parents to successfully take advantage of public school, advantages that I think will pay off for the individual and society down the road, in throwing money at a dead horse, who is the dead horse, the student?

Where is the new horse in your suggestion?

Both actually. I see the widgets and the machine that produces them as dead horses. I propose starting with machine. Instead of building another machine to adjust the widgets, adjust the machine to produce the widgets that you wanted to begin with.

1) How about asking those in the field what they need to know to survive. Then ask their bosses what they would like from their fresh-out employees.

2) Find a way for the schools to give them as much of that as possible with as little BS as possible.

3) Find a way to measure progress.

4) Find a way to make the schools accountable.

5) See if it works. If it doesn't, go back to the drawing board.