Pope Benedict's Warning to Theologians

[Starman3000m]

Starman, the Holy Spirit lives in me, too, and has guided my interpretation of the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit that has told me that, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church" does, indeed, institute the authority in question. Peter's statement of faith came two or three sentences before Jesus'. I'm sure you've been all over the Aramaic translation of petro/petra, etc, so I will refrain. Suffice to say that you have no business calling anyone's interpretation wrong, unless you claim infallibility for yourself. Otherwise, the paradigm you use for your own faith, that the infallible interpreter that is the Holy Spirit guides you, I claim equally for myself.

Hi libby,

Remember, I received the same Divine Revelation of "Peter's statement of faith" as mentioned in my testimony. That does not make me a pope nor does it make me the "rock" that Jesus spoke of. As mentioned earlier, Rome usurped the Christian movement and brought it under control of man - not of God. Sorry, libby, but you have been indoctrinated to place your faith in a man (the pope) and that is not whom we are to trust. That is why Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be sent to guide us into truth. And here is the Truth:

The Rock of Salvation is Jesus; not Peter.

The Foundational "Building Stone" of the True Church is Jesus; not Peter.

The True Church is the Spiritual Body of Believers throughout the world who have trusted in Jesus as Lord and Saviour whereby the Holy Spirit indwells the Child of God.

The True Church It is NOT a temple built by hands.

Jesus Christ Is The Son of The Living God:That is the Truth which the gates of hell cannot prevail against.

The Vatican is wrong to claim that the RCC is the only way to Salvation.

 

[libby]

Hmmm...so at Mass, when we pray for Pope Benedict, who are we praying to for protection?? If we think the pope is a deity, why would we pray for him at all??
So, Italian, if you hold my place in line at McDonald's, while I go to the bathroom, does that make you me??
Jesus Christ said to the seventy-two disciple in Luke 10, "He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me. And whoever rejects me, rejects the one who sent me." This, after the disciples returned from their mission, and had found that demons were subject to them. Was it by the power of the disciples themselves?? No, they acted vicariously for Jesus, yet they were not Him. Jesus reminded them of that, and the Scripture reminds the Holy Father of that, and never has Pope Benedict made any statement or act to the contrary.
You are bearing false witness, and your statement that no one acts in the place of God on earth is in direct contradiction of the Bible.

 

[libby]

Hi libby,

Remember, I received the same Divine Revelation of "Peter's statement of faith" as mentioned in my testimony. That does not make me a pope nor does it make me the "rock" that Jesus spoke of. As mentioned earlier, Rome usurped the Christian movement and brought it under control of man - not of God. Sorry, libby, but you have been indoctrinated to place your faith in a man (the pope) and that is not whom we are to trust. That is why Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be sent to guide us into truth. And here is the Truth:

The Rock of Salvation is Jesus; not Peter.

The Foundational "Building Stone" of the True Church is Jesus; not Peter.

The True Church is the Spiritual Body of Believers throughout the world who have trusted in Jesus as Lord and Saviour whereby the Holy Spirit indwells the Child of God.

The True Church It is NOT a temple built by hands.

Jesus Christ Is The Son of The Living God:That is the Truth which the gates of hell cannot prevail against.

The Vatican is wrong to claim that the RCC is the only way to Salvation.

Wrong, I do not place my trust in the pope. My trust is in God the Father, God the Son,and God the Holy Spirit. God Incarnate promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to protect the Truth, and that is where my trust lies.
As already pointed out, you cannot claim that I have been indoctrinated as opposed to having truly had a Divine Revelation by the Holy Spirit without claiming infallibility for yourself. A charism you deny is applicable to any human. My position has just as much Biblical foundation as yours.

 

[Starman3000m]

Wrong, I do not place my trust in the pope. My trust is in God the Father, God the Son,and God the Holy Spirit. God Incarnate promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to protect the Truth, and that is where my trust lies.
As already pointed out, you cannot claim that I have been indoctrinated as opposed to having truly had a Divine Revelation by the Holy Spirit without claiming infallibility for yourself. A charism you deny is applicable to any human. My position has just as much Biblical foundation as yours.

Then you are in agreement that Salvation is a Free Gift of God through personal Faith in Jesus Christ and a person does not need to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church, as the Vatican proclaims?

 

[Starman3000m]

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)
Quoting Timothy?? How dare you quote any words other than Jesus Christ. Idolator!!

No, not quoting "Timothy" per sé this is quoting the Apostle Paul's words in his letter to Timothy where Paul is acknowledging that Jesus is the One and Only Mediator between God and men. Meanwhile, you've got to admit, the RCC has placed other "mediators" in front of Jesus as in a form of heirarchy to get to the Saviour.

And, please libby, careful of using the word "idolater" here. If you want the description of an "idolater" here are a few things to think about:

A person who kneels in reverence to a statue (marble, wooden, alabaster, clay, etc., is an idolater.

A person who kisses the hand or cheek of any religious authority in reverence to their position in the church is an idolater.

A person who places faith in inanimate charms as a means of "protection" is an idolater.

Now that is idolatry.

 

[libby]

Have you ever kissed your Bible? Have you ever read the Scriptures and bowed your head in contemplation of what you've just read?? If you do, then do not accuse me of idolatry.
As for Timothy, I think you get my point. Quoting the Gospels is the most Scripture you can quote because at least their books are the life and words of Christ Himself. However, to quote Peter or Paul is placing a mediator between you and God, by your own definition.
Your understanding of the church is fundamentally flawed. The starting point for understanding the church is (drum roll please....) The Scriptures!!
As for whether or not a person must be a member of the RCC to obtain salvation, then the answer from me AND the RCC is no!
That said, the Catholic (universal) Church certainly was established by Jesus Christ to bring His Gospel to the whole world. It is with that fact in mind, therefore, that it is only through the church of Jesus Christ that anyone is saved.
This is no different than you and I being saved through the chosen people, the Jews, through whom the Lord chose to come. This is no different than you getting your theology from Paul, through whom the Lord chose to speak.

 

[Toxick]

A person who kneels in reverence to a statue (marble, wooden, alabaster, clay, etc., is an idolater.

A person who kisses the hand or cheek of any religious authority in reverence to their position in the church is an idolater.

A person who places faith in inanimate charms as a means of "protection" is an idolater.

Now that is idolatry.

Holy crap!


And using this logic, if I go away on business, and I bring along a picture of my wife... and I kiss that picture before I go to bed, does that mean I cheated on my wife?


I feel all dirty and used now.

 

[libby]

And another...
have you ever visited the grave of a loved one and kissed the headstone? Do you ever bow your head in prayer at that headstone?? I do both of these things when I visit my father's grave, but there is no way I am mistaking him for God.
Back to the Bible...do the Scriptures get thrown in with the rest of the books, or do the Scriptures have a space more appropriate than the floor next to the potty?
Do you toss the Holy Book like you might toss Sports Illustrated?? I doubt it. I bet the word of God is treated with far more respect than the Harry Potter series, and I would definitely not make the mistake of thinking you were worshipping the inanimate book itself. Offer Catholics the same courtesy instead of these knee jerk reactions.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Quoting the Gospels is the most Scripture you can quote because at least their books are the life and words of Christ Himself. However, to quote Peter or Paul is placing a mediator between you and God, by your own definition.
Your understanding of the church is fundamentally flawed. The starting point for understanding the church is (drum roll please....) The Scriptures!!
As for whether or not a person must be a member of the RCC to obtain salvation, then the answer from me AND the RCC is no!
That said, the Catholic (universal) Church certainly was established by Jesus Christ to bring His Gospel to the whole world. It is with that fact in mind, therefore, that it is only through the church of Jesus Christ that anyone is saved.
This is no different than you and I being saved through the chosen people, the Jews, through whom the Lord chose to come. This is no different than you getting your theology from Paul, through whom the Lord chose to speak.

OK Libby, CHILL! You've contradicted yourself 3 times here. 1) The gospels are all we can quote BUT the fundamental starting point is the Scriptures?
2) "...the answer from me is no" as to whether one must be a catholic to be saved BUT "it is only through the church of Jesus Christ (catholic) that anyone is saved"?
3) Since you don't acknowledge the entire Bible, how can you say that Paul was a vessel through whom the Lord chose to speak.
Sweetheart, I don't want to get into this because, if you are truly saved, we're wasting our time. The only reason I'm even doing this is because I came out of catholicism THINKING I was saved but wasn't and I only want catholics to know that acknowledging God's existence is not enough. I never could stay in the catholic church after I got saved but some do. I don't understand how they can, but they do. So, as long as you KNOW you are saved, then I'll stop

 

[Starman3000m]

...the Catholic (universal) Church certainly was established by Jesus Christ to bring His Gospel to the whole world. It is with that fact in mind, therefore, that it is only through the church of Jesus Christ that anyone is saved.

Libby, I hope you do understand that by definition the word "Catholic" indeed means "Universal" but that does not specifically denote nor imply that it is referring to the Roman Catholic Church based in the Vatican and headed by the pope.

It is the collective Universal Spiritual Body of Believers who have placed their faith in Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour that comprise the True Church on earth. Do you agree - or do you believe that the "Universal Church" is the Roman Catholic Church and has exclusivity to Salvation as proclaimed by the Vatican and pope?

Jesus chided religious leaders and their organized religion that served only to enslave people and control them with half-truths which means the other halves are deceptions. Organized religions have placed people under bondage to man's authority - not God's Authority.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.(John 8:32)

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:36)

 

[Starman3000m]

OK Libby, CHILL! You've contradicted yourself 3 times here. 1) The gospels are all we can quote BUT the fundamental starting point is the Scriptures?
2) "...the answer from me is no" as to whether one must be a catholic to be saved BUT "it is only through the church of Jesus Christ (catholic) that anyone is saved"?
3) Since you don't acknowledge the entire Bible, how can you say that Paul was a vessel through whom the Lord chose to speak.
Sweetheart, I don't want to get into this because, if you are truly saved, we're wasting our time. The only reason I'm even doing this is because I came out of catholicism THINKING I was saved but wasn't and I only want catholics to know that acknowledging God's existence is not enough. I never could stay in the catholic church after I got saved but some do. I don't understand how they can, but they do. So, as long as you KNOW you are saved, then I'll stop

Amen - Praise God for your Salvation ItalianScallion!

Whether it is Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam, Jehovah's Witness, etc., all of these organized religions give their followers a false sense of security that they are in the right group that receives Salvation. Many are led to believe that all they need to do is be a member, abide by church "doctrine" and do as the religious leaders command. Sorry, Not So.
The fact is: Church membership does not equate to "guaranteed Salvation" as many are led to believe.

As far as all the churches bragging about their growth and massive amount of new members, we need only to be reminded of Jesus' parable:

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

Here Is The Way:
Jesus said, "I Am The Way The Truth And The Life; No Man Can Come Unto The Father except Through Me." (John 14:6)

 

[dustin]

This came only days after it became known that the Vatican's doctrinal office was probing Father Peter Phan, a theologian at Washington's Georgetown University who says that non-Christian religions have a place in the salvation of mankind.

I wonder what he thinks of fairy dust?

 

[Starman3000m]

Holy crap!

And using this logic, if I go away on business, and I bring along a picture of my wife... and I kiss that picture before I go to bed, does that mean I cheated on my wife?

I feel all dirty and used now.

LOL

Well, as long as you love your wife and don't "worship her" literally, then I think you're OK on this one. Afterall you are not placing her picture in a religious position of authority over you - are you? lol

And by the way, the Bible tells men to Love their wives and to treat them well:

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (Ephesians 5:25)

Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. (Colossians 3:19)

 

[libby]

OK Libby, CHILL! You've contradicted yourself 3 times here. 1) The gospels are all we can quote BUT the fundamental starting point is the Scriptures?
2) "...the answer from me is no" as to whether one must be a catholic to be saved BUT "it is only through the church of Jesus Christ (catholic) that anyone is saved"?
3) Since you don't acknowledge the entire Bible, how can you say that Paul was a vessel through whom the Lord chose to speak.
Sweetheart, I don't want to get into this because, if you are truly saved, we're wasting our time. The only reason I'm even doing this is because I came out of catholicism THINKING I was saved but wasn't and I only want catholics to know that acknowledging God's existence is not enough. I never could stay in the catholic church after I got saved but some do. I don't understand how they can, but they do. So, as long as you KNOW you are saved, then I'll stop

No Italian, you misread my posts. Starman has condemned listening to anyone other than Jesus Christ, that He alone is the mediator. It is based on this that he, therefore, should not listen to anything Peter or Paul have to say. The indwelling Holy Spirit he claims should be all he needs to know all truth. Do you understand my meaning now?

 

[libby]

perhaps you need to clarify where you think my contradictions are, or re-read the thread if you misunderstand me.
I do not see what you're getting at with objections #'s 2 and 3.

 

[libby]

Amen - Praise God for your Salvation ItalianScallion!

Whether it is Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam, Jehovah's Witness, etc., all of these organized religions give their followers a false sense of security that they are in the right group that receives Salvation. Many are led to believe that all they need to do is be a member, abide by church "doctrine" and do as the religious leaders command. Sorry, Not So.
The fact is: Church membership does not equate to "guaranteed Salvation" as many are led to believe.

As far as all the churches bragging about their growth and massive amount of new members, we need only to be reminded of Jesus' parable:

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)


Again, you speak as though you know what the RCC teaches, but you are wrong. The Catholic Church does not guarantee anyone salvation. Whether or not someone is saved is up to God alone. We can agree on one thing, that if you or I do anything we do in order to appear pious in the eyes of the world, but our hearts are not focused on the Lord, then we might be in big trouble come judgement day.

 

[Toxick]

Well, as long as you love your wife and don't "worship her" literally, then I think you're OK on this one.

Not sure you caught my point....


I'm in love with my wife, but I'm not in love with her photograph, even though I might kiss it.

I worship God, but I don't worship his statues even though I might kneel in front of it.


To spell it out: Kneeling in front of a statue does not constitute idolatry, any more than kissing a photo of your wife constitutes adultery.

 

[ItalianScallion]

No Italian, you misread my posts. Starman has condemned listening to anyone other than Jesus Christ, that He alone is the mediator. It is based on this that he, therefore, should not listen to anything Peter or Paul have to say. The indwelling Holy Spirit he claims should be all he needs to know all truth. Do you understand my meaning now?

OK, sorry if I misunderstood your point but my point still stands about salvation.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Amen - Praise God for your Salvation ItalianScallion!

Thank you my friend! All I care about here is salvation. I let God do the changing. If someone's beliefs didn't affect their salvation, I wouldn't even waste my words here. For example: if someone believes that the earth is millions or billions of years old, SO WHAT? I don't but that won't keep them out of heaven, so why argue? But these other issues, I will take them to task on. This is why I said I'm beating a dead horse because, before you came onto the forum, myself and a few others WORE THIS TOPIC OUT!
Again I'll tell ALL OF YOU that if you'd like to hear a great shortwave radio Bible study, on the internet, every night (EXCEPT FRIDAY) from 9:30-10:30PM, check out my website at www.thespiritnet.net There is interaction with people all over the USA and the discussion is great. Click on the link at the bottom of the home page, but remember, we're ONLY hearable between 9:30 & 10:30PM. Thanks!

 

[Starman3000m]

No Italian, you misread my posts. Starman has condemned listening to anyone other than Jesus Christ, that He alone is the mediator. It is based on this that he, therefore, should not listen to anything Peter or Paul have to say. The indwelling Holy Spirit he claims should be all he needs to know all truth. Do you understand my meaning now?

C'mon, libby, that is not true at all. Where have I condemned anyone from listening (or reading) words from anyone other than Jesus? The only corrections are when whatever is being said or written is not according to scripture from the Holy Bible. Many times, I have quoted scripture from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul where they write about their accounts with the Lord Jesus and their advice to followers in the faith. However, they are NOT mediators; they are teachers as Jesus sent them out to teach and have His Message spread throughout the ends of the world.

Now as far as a Mediator between you and God, it is Jesus and no one else. If your contention is that others can do the mediating for you then I would disagree because according to scripture there is Only One Mediator between God and mankind as the Holy Bible states.

Regarding the indwelling Holy Spirit, I do not fault you on misunderstanding this because many churches today deny that the power of God's Holy Spirit is at work in the lives of those who have trusted Christ as Lord and Saviour.
This is what Jesus called being "Born Again" where we are spiritually alive to understand God's Word and meaning of how His Word applies to our lives.
God's words are spiritually discerned, libby, that is why many people can read the Holy Bible and still not grasp the actual meaning of the message being conveyed. The Holy Spirit is also our Comforter as well as Teacher and is the seal of Promise whereby we know that we are the Children of God.

Why people read the Bible yet do not understand:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to be with God's Children:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

The Holy Spirit is our Comforter and Teacher:

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

Mankind chooses to either obey and live by the flesh or obey and live by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit testifies that we are the Children of God:

Romans, Chapter 8:

5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.