Proof you say !

[gumbo]

Want proof of God ? Part 1 The Universe.
Science has demonstrated that there is a supernatural ,super-intelligent Creator of the universe , just as the book of Genesis declares.
In addition the Bible foresaw many things that have only been known by science centuries later.
How about a little scientific evidence for a supernatural cause of the universe ?
Truth is everything that comes into existence has a cause.
Modern science has shown that the universe must have had a cause , since the material universe came into existence.
All the evidence for the universe having a beginning supports this conclusion, including the second law of thermodynamics , the expanding universe, the radiation echo,, the discovery by the Hubble Space Telescope of the large mass of energy predicted by the Big Bang theory,
Einstein’s general theory of relativity and the impossibility of an infinite number of moments before today.
Two for God , first Astronomy , Second Microbiology !
The cause of the universe and all living things
Lets take Astronomy first , God or Luck ?
The universe was fitted from the very first moment of it’s existence to sustain life and for human life in particular.
The universe is amazingly preadapted for humans, for if there was the slightest variation at the moment of the Big Bang , the conditions for human life would not have been possible.
If conditions in our universe were different , even in the smallest degree, no life of any kind would exist.
The incredible balance of multitudes of factors in the universe that make life possible on earth and it is so fine tuned it has to have been orchestrated by a supernatural intelligent Being.
As even agnostic scientist have noted, the conditions are so fine tuned that it would lead one to believe that the universe was “providentially crafted” for our benefit.
Nothing know to human beings, other than an intelligent Creator, is capable of pre-tuning the conditions of the universe to make life possible.
Former Agnostic and Famous astronomer Alan Sandage remarked,
The world is to complicated in all it’s parts to be due to chance alone.
So the choice is, Sheot happens or was it created ?
Have you looked through a telescope lately ? A clock has a clock maker.

 

[Oz]

Too much Bud at the track?

 

[aps45819]

Want proof of God ?

Consider water. All other substances become denser as they go from gas, to liquid to solid. If water did this ice would sink and kill all freshwater life in the winter. The ice caps would sink, refreeze, sink untill the oceans were frozen solid. This exception to the rules allow life to exist.

 

[SmallTown]

The universe is amazingly preadapted for humans, for if there was the slightest variation at the moment of the Big Bang , the conditions for human life would not have been possible.
If conditions in our universe were different , even in the smallest degree, no life of any kind would exist.

Life as we *currently* know it wouldn't exist. Who is to say it did not take millions of years for life as we know it to flourish in the current conditions?

Which is why I always laugh at the hardcore folks who swear that no other life exists in the universe because it would be so difficult to reproduce our "ideal" environment. Maybe so. But who knows if there are places out there where life is designed to live in -100 degree temps, breathe a substance that is not know to mankind on earth, etc.

And your mention of a clock has a clockmaker is interesting. Is time a god-given entity, or yet another item that man created? Without clocks, does time still exist? If so, did time begin at the big bang (or whatever creation theory you believe in), or some infinite "time" in the past? Is it circular? Is time based on our exhistence? if you traveled back through time to our creation (whichever form that may be), would you be able to continue on?

 

[Penn]

Life as we *currently* know it wouldn't exist. Who is to say it did not take millions of years for life as we know it to flourish in the current conditions?

Which is why I always laugh at the hardcore folks who swear that no other life exists in the universe because it would be so difficult to reproduce our "ideal" environment. Maybe so. But who knows if there are places out there where life is designed to live in -100 degree temps, breathe a substance that is not know to mankind on earth, etc.

And your mention of a clock has a clockmaker is interesting. Is time a god-given entity, or yet another item that man created? Without clocks, does time still exist? If so, did time begin at the big bang (or whatever creation theory you believe in), or some infinite "time" in the past? Is it circular? Is time based on our exhistence? if you traveled back through time to our creation (whichever form that may be), would you be able to continue on?

ST, I've been reading some interesting articles from a favorite author of mine, J. Vernon McGee; he suggests that the timing (Creation)mentioned in the first chapters of Genesis and the Gospel of John is far beyond what we humans can conceive of, or for that matter, what think we know to be true.

This stuff happened way back farther than we assume, in other words. So in fact, you may have hit on a heck of a good point - that it took maybe tens of millions of years for God to create the universe in order for mankind and animals, plants etc., to evolve.

According to the Bible, the first humans used to live to the ripe old age of 900, or so. Then the Lord changed that to a more reasonable age limit, in the low hundreds!

 

[Tonio]

As someone who beleives in God, I ask what would motivate someone to try to scentifically prove His existence? Doesn't that go against the very idea of faith? Maybe the human race is better off with no objective proof one way or the other.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm

The appeal of this legend isn't difficult to see — the tale confirms not only the existence of God, but also the literal truth of the Bible. Moreover, it pits the scientists versus the believers, with the believers emerging victorious and the (presumed godless) scientists left ground into dust by the very science they'd so long and so loudly upheld. David (in the form of the pure-hearted believer) takes on the Goliath of Science who continally bleats for independently verifiable proof of the Almighty, and for once the faithful are able to deliver up on a silver platter what's been asked for.

To those who've given over their hearts to God and the Holy Word, this is a deeply satisfying legend. Faith is, after all, the firm belief in something for which no proof exists, a quality that can leave believers — especially those who find themselves in the midst of non-believers — feeling unsatisfied. As steadfast as their certainty is, they cannot prove the rightness of the path they tread to those who jeer at their convictions. And this is a heavy burden to shoulder. A legend such as the "missing day explained" tale speaks straight to the hearts of those who yearn for a bit of vindication in this life. Being right isn't always enough — sometimes what one most longs for is sweet recognition from others.

And why should those with strong religious beliefs care if other people don't share those beliefs? Isn't it enough that they themselves believe?

 

[Penn]

As someone who beleives in God, I ask what would motivate someone to try to scentifically prove His existence? Doesn't that go against the very idea of faith? Maybe the human race is better off with no objective proof one way or the other.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm



And why should those with strong religious beliefs care if other people don't share those beliefs? Isn't it enough that they themselves believe?

Wow! Two outstanding questions! Ones that demand your giving them serious thought.

I'm no expert; there at least a dozen people on this board who have greater knowledge on this than I do. To your first posit, however, what initially comes to mind is this: Have these people come to the end of their logical/scientifical theorizing - have they taken all the laws of science and physics in account - and have they come to the belief that there's something else involved here?

Something, even with all their vast knowledge, they cannot fill in the gaps, so to speak? Do they feel there's something else at play here? So are they are saying - let's explore this possiblity - can we explain it, not neccesarily prove what these "believers" hold as truth, but extrapolate it, using what is written in the Bible? Darn good question, but probably not the best answer.

To the second one: Remember that in the four Gospels, Christ said to go out into the world and spread "The Word". That's the last thing He told His disciples to do: continue His ministry.

I have to believe there are those who have taken those words to heart, more than others. It's a mission to them, and I can't downplay it.

I rediscovered Christianity about 3 years ago myself, came on this board and started some threads about my experiences. The way I went about it was too harsh, too self centered, and too rigid, I think.

I've learned, for one thing, when discussing the fate of an unbeliever, not to actively tell them "You're going to Hell, if you don't accept Christ, and what He did for us."

Rather, that's for each and every person to decide individually; not my place to to pass judgement, because I don't have that power, nor is it my right, either. What I feel now is this: Armed with the knowledge of what you've read in the Bible(if you've chosen to give it a serious read), and what others who have written throughout history, it's up to you to come to that decision.

From what I've been able to discern, He will know who you are; your faith, and how you lived - and He will either accept you or reject you, when that time comes.

Thanks!

 

[2ndAmendment]

I believe in the Bible. The account of creation in the Bible and the Biblical time line says that the age of creation is about 6000 years. Oh oh ... that can't be right! Yes it can. God created the universe mature in every way.

The Big Bang is a theory that really does not hold up with the distribution of matter in the known universe. That is the reason for the search for "dark" matter.

Man looks for ways to either discredit God or impose human limits on God. God is as far beyond our comprehension as we are beyond the comprehension of a paramecium. We can't understand His creation. How can we impose our limits on God? Why Christians would want to impose the limits of our understanding on God or creation is beyond me.

 

[Dondi]

I believe in the Bible. The account of creation in the Bible and the Biblical time line says that the age of creation is about 6000 years. Oh oh ... that can't be right! Yes it can. God created the universe mature in every way.

A question. You mentioned that God created the universe mature. Some would look at the fact that God create Adam and Eve as mature adults, so why couldn't make the universe appear as aged.

I wonder: Did God make the light of the stars appear instantanteously so that man could see the light of the stars for those systems more than 6000 light-years away, assuming God made the earth 6000 years ago? Otherwise, we would have to assume that God took longer than 6000 years in order to allow for the light to travel to earth. I'm not trying to start a debate, it's just something I thought about.

 

[gumbo]

I believe in the Bible. The account of creation in the Bible and the Biblical time line says that the age of creation is about 6000 years. Oh oh ... that can't be right! Yes it can. God created the universe mature in every way.

The Big Bang is a theory that really does not hold up with the distribution of matter in the known universe. That is the reason for the search for "dark" matter.

Man looks for ways to either discredit God or impose human limits on God. God is as far beyond our comprehension as we are beyond the comprehension of a paramecium. We can't understand His creation. How can we impose our limits on God? Why Christians would want to impose the limits of our understanding on God or creation is beyond me.

The thought is when God created a living world...Big Bang ?

 

[Kizzy]

There is scientific evidence to show that at one time the Earth was a very tropical place, and in tropical environments animals and plants grow to an astronomical size. We once had dinosaurs roaming the Earth. Man could not exist with dinosaurs, and of course the evidence of the Earth shows that the Earth did suffer some catastrophe of some sort. It was destroyed, as it was and life as we know it is created. They have found large plant leaf impressions in mountains in places like Alaska, that is known to be cold and where it is just no way a plant leaf could have grown to such a size unless there was once a tropical environment. Even the bible says if you want evidence you can find it in the Earth, and this was just a quick search, but

Acts 2:19 - And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

We get fossils from the earth, volcanoes, shifts from rocks. There are several references in the bible as to the Earth and the answers that lie within the Earth as evidence. Evidence that we were created.

The problem I have with thinking that the world was created by some big bang theory and that we are all here as a result of evolution is that it is impossible in my eyes. Try building something from nothing, you cannot. Matter is nothing; it has not always been in existence, and to say that it has been and has evolved over time implies that everything was thrown together is some sort of disarray coming together to form life as we know it today. Life is just way to complex for that and falls into place a bit more structurally for me to even remotely believe that. David Pack has written some well-worded and strongly intelligent articles on the scientific evidence to consider in creation versus evolution and I believe this is where 2A was leaning.

 

[2ndAmendment]

A question. You mentioned that God created the universe mature. Some would look at the fact that God create Adam and Eve as mature adults, so why couldn't make the universe appear as aged.

I wonder: Did God make the light of the stars appear instantanteously so that man could see the light of the stars for those systems more than 6000 light-years away, assuming God made the earth 6000 years ago? Otherwise, we would have to assume that God took longer than 6000 years in order to allow for the light to travel to earth. I'm not trying to start a debate, it's just something I thought about.

I think the Bible is clear. God made the universe and then He made Adam and Eve. They could see the stars and the moon. He made the univers mature as we see it. The light of the stars reached the earth from the first day of the creation of the stars.

Genesis 1

<sup id="en-NASB-13">13</sup>There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

<sup id="en-NASB-14">14</sup>Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

<sup id="en-NASB-15">15</sup>and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-16">16</sup>God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.

<sup id="en-NASB-17">17</sup>God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,

<sup id="en-NASB-18">18</sup>and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

<sup id="en-NASB-19">19</sup>There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

 

[2ndAmendment]

There is scientific evidence to show that at one time the Earth was a very tropical place, and in tropical environments animals and plants grow to an astronomical size. We once had dinosaurs roaming the Earth. Man could not exist with dinosaurs, and of course the evidence of the Earth shows that the Earth did suffer some catastrophe of some sort.

What about the human footprints found inside the footprints of T-Rex? That indicates that man and T-Rex were contemporaries. Where did the stories of man slaying dragons come from? Killing dinosaurs? As for the geological record, ever read of a great flood covering all the earth? That would completely rearrage the biological distribution.

Acts 2:19 is about the Last Days, not creation.

I believe the Bible. I don't try to justify it or conform it to my limited understanding of God and His creation.

 

[2ndAmendment]

The thought is when God created a living world...Big Bang ?

Distribution of matter in observable universe does not support an explosion (Big Bang) in a vacuum.

 

[Penn]

From the Holman Bible Series, "The Meaning of Time":

God is Lord over time, because He created and ordained time.(Gen. 1:4-5, 14-19) God Himself is timeless and eternal, not bound by space or time.(Exod. 3: 14-15) Because of His foreknowledge, only God knows and foreordains events in time.(Dan. 2: 20-22, Mark. 13: 31-32, Acts. 1:7; 22-23)

The point being, how can we equate today's time and clock cycles with what took place during His Time of Creation?

Did a day equal 24 hours during that period; was a year 365 days? I have been advised - that so much of that is unclear - therefore Creation may well have taken more than 6000 years to complete.

 

[Kizzy]

What about the human footprints found inside the footprints of T-Rex? That indicates that man and T-Rex were contemporaries. Where did the stories of man slaying dragons come from? Killing dinosaurs? As for the geological record, ever read of a great flood covering all the earth? That would completely rearrage the biological distribution.

In the book of Genesis, it talks about the mist rain, the large beast and it implies people were there and there was much violence, which is why I said that man could not live with beast. Could you imagine have large beast roaming the Earth today? The TV show "Land of the Lost" comes to mind. Of course not. They'd be stomping on us everywhere. It was all destroyed from some type of catastrophe (yes, 40 days and 40 nights of rain) but the Earth shows that there is evidence to support a catastrophe did occur.

Acts 2:19 is about the Last Days, not creation.

I believe we are in our last days. We learn alot from fossils and fossils take time to form, create, extract, find, whatever, but the answers are there. I am not a bible scholar and don't even remotely claim to be, but my point is that there are many references in the bible to the answers of creation being found in the Earth from fossils.

I believe the Bible. I don't try to justify it or conform it to my limited understanding of God and His creation.

Yeah - but there are people asking for proff in this thread. I agree with what you are saying, but proff I think they are looking for is already in the Earth.

 

[404]

Yeah - but there are people asking for proff in this thread. I agree with what you are saying, but proff I think they are looking for is already in the Earth.

I thought he asked for proof?

 

[Kizzy]

I thought he asked for proof?

Yeah - a difference a letter makes. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Oz]

The thought is when God created a living world...Big Bang ?

Oh no! Not the Gumbo song in the Religion section...

 

[2ndAmendment]

In the book of Genesis, it talks about the mist rain, the large beast and it implies people were there and there was much violence, which is why I said that man could not live with beast.

God created all the beasts of the earth and man on the sixth day and there was no violence between man and the beasts.

Genesis 1:24-31

<sup id="en-NASB-24">24</sup>Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-25">25</sup>God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

<sup id="en-NASB-26">26</sup>Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

<sup id="en-NASB-27">27</sup>God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

<sup id="en-NASB-28">28</sup>God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

<sup id="en-NASB-29">29</sup>Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

<sup id="en-NASB-30">30</sup>and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-31">31</sup>God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Could you imagine have large beast roaming the Earth today? The TV show "Land of the Lost" comes to mind. Of course not. They'd be stomping on us everywhere. It was all destroyed from some type of catastrophe (yes, 40 days and 40 nights of rain) but the Earth shows that there is evidence to support a catastrophe did occur.

No they wouldn't be stomping on us. The patterns of the human footprints in the T-Rex footprints seemed to indicate that the humans were hunting the T-Rex not the other way around. Humans have and do hunt animals much larger than themselves; humans are the top predator of this world.

I believe we are in our last days. We learn alot from fossils and fossils take time to form, create, extract, find, whatever, but the answers are there. I am not a bible scholar and don't even remotely claim to be, but my point is that there are many references in the bible to the answers of creation being found in the Earth from fossils.

Yeah - but there are people asking for proff in this thread. I agree with what you are saying, but proff I think they are looking for is already in the Earth.

I believe we are in the last days, but how long they will last is another matter.

I would like to point out that the dating methods of the fossils are based on human "wisdom" and that there are lots of assumptions made. The word "assume" is one of the most dangerous in the English language. Assumption is one of the most dangerous things people do.

There is no proof that will be accepted by a non-believer. People believe what they will. It is far more comforting for a non-believer to believe that there is no God, so they can believe they do not have to answer for their actions. For believers, the proof is everywhere we look.

I don't make excuses for the Bible. I just believe it.