Rant

[cattitude]

I think we should all stop bickering, admit I'm right, and move on to the next subject!!

Who's bickering?

 

[itsbob]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is.. people join and volunteer for different reasons.. sense of community for the VFD's for example, the need to help their fellow human beings, or the social aspect of people with like minds hanging out.. People join the Military for different reasons.. they get sold on the college money, or the bonus $$ 20K is a LOT of incentive to a 17 year old.. but the guys that volunteer to be infantryman or corpsman do it for a different reason.. Somebody mentioned Pat Tillman, he didn't give up his NFL career to be a finance clerk, or a mechanic.. he was an infantryman. They (and I'm talking across all branches) are a special breed. It's not for the money, it's not for college.. it's for God, Honor and Country.. something that was instilled into them when they were growing up, by their parents, their teachers.. vets in the community.. to them the easy road is not a choice, not an option.... They are the consumate patriots today.

Whats sad is the all the branches are going out of their way to make these special seviceman unrecognizable from the rest... You have to look close to see the difference between a clerk and a combat medic.. or a mechanic and an infantyrman.. they walk a little different, their hair is a little shorter.. but all distinguishing features have been removed.. EVERYBODY in the Army now wears berets.. all the Marines wear the same uniform.. same with the Navy.. you have to look close to see the look.. or the little blue cord, or the corpsmans badge.. or the CIB, or the CMB...

ALL servicemen deserve our respect and our gratitude, I just think they deserve a little bit more.

 

[Bruzilla]

Bush went with data that was inaccurate. He believed it to be solid, but unfortunately he was wrong.

Let us back the inaccurate train up a little bit. We know that he did have WMDs, and we know that Hussein's details of how they were "destroyed" don't mech with what we've found on the ground. For example, you don't drop thousands of liters of biotoxins into a hole in the ground and burn them without leaving a lot of trace evidence. And as for the allegation that the yellow cake uranium claim was wrong, the Senate Intelligence Committee thoroughly debunked that as a lie last month.

Granted, there were no WMDs found when we arrived, but that doesn't alter the fact that Hussein did have them at one time, and that he didn't have them when we got there, and there's little evidence to confirm that they were destroyed. That can only mean that they've been moved, not that Bush's (or Clinton's) data was wrong.

Just because a dope dealer flushes his stash down the toilet doesn't mean he's no longer a dope dealer.

 

[Pete]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is.. people join and volunteer for different reasons.. sense of community for the VFD's for example, the need to help their fellow human beings, or the social aspect of people with like minds hanging out.. People join the Military for different reasons.. they get sold on the college money, or the bonus $$ 20K is a LOT of incentive to a 17 year old.. but the guys that volunteer to be infantryman or corpsman do it for a different reason.. Somebody mentioned Pat Tillman, he didn't give up his NFL career to be a finance clerk, or a mechanic.. he was an infantryman. They (and I'm talking across all branches) are a special breed. It's not for the money, it's not for college.. it's for God, Honor and Country.. something that was instilled into them when they were growing up, by their parents, their teachers.. vets in the community.. to them the easy road is not a choice, not an option.... They are the consumate patriots today.

Whats sad is the all the branches are going out of their way to make these special seviceman unrecognizable from the rest... You have to look close to see the difference between a clerk and a combat medic.. or a mechanic and an infantyrman.. they walk a little different, their hair is a little shorter.. but all distinguishing features have been removed.. EVERYBODY in the Army now wears berets.. all the Marines wear the same uniform.. same with the Navy.. you have to look close to see the look.. or the little blue cord, or the corpsmans badge.. or the CIB, or the CMB...

ALL servicemen deserve our respect and our gratitude, I just think they deserve a little bit more.

You failed to mention probably the #1 reason many are infantrymen; they scored a 12 on the ASVAB and were not qualified for anything else.

 

[Bruzilla]

But you and Bob both just stated our soilders over there. Percentage wise how much of our military is over there. Our military over here is in much less danger then our police or fire force.

A very very good friend of mine is "over there" and will be coming home this fall. I have the utmost respect for the amount of danger he's in. But the fact of the matter is there's one year out of his life when he's been in significant danger. He'll come back and sit at a desk just like you and I. A cop is in potential danger his entire career.

My point was as a whole (not just soldiers that are deployed overseas durning wartime) that the military is no more nobel, selfless, etc then our police or firefighters.

I've worked as a cop and in the military, and there's more risk to a military member than to a cop anyday, even stateside. Police generally don't spend their days working around things that go boom, around planes that crash or tanks that can kill you every day, or are engaged in jobs that are pretty much designed to kill you at one point or another every time you do them.

If you really want to get picky, being an Alaskan Snow Crab fisherman is statistically the most dangerous job in America. So raise a toast to those guys next time you hit that all-you-can-eat crab legs night at Red Lobster.

 

[itsbob]

You failed to mention probably the #1 reason many are infantrymen; they scored a 12 on the ASVAB and were not qualified for anything else.

Don't know, the years I was a recruiter the infantryman had to score over a 50.. the same qualifying score to be an airman.. or a crew chief.. or a linguist...what is referred to as a 3A. 31 is the qualifying score for entrance into the military.. and at times, like the first two months of a fiscal year we would let in our quota of 3B's, then were limited to only allowing those who scored better then 50.. and for those reading it saying damn, only a 50... this is a percetile score.. not a percentage of what they got right or wrong.. High Tech weapons demand smart people to operate them.

And in the years I was a recruiter I only put in MAYBE one or two infantryman... and that's what they came into my office wanting to be.. nothing else..

AND in the off chance we were allowed to put in a CAT-IV (16 -31) we had to put them into jobs like, Laundry and Bath Specialist.. or cook.. and did get ONE into a Dental Assistants job...

 

[hvp05]

I was in no way dowing the military. There are plenty of people in the military that deserve our utmost respect and admiration. That one guy that gave up his football career only to get killed over there comes to mind. But those firefighters and police that died 9-11 just doing their daily job shouldn't be forgotten. They are protecting our streets and lives every day of their career.

I don't discriminate.... I LOVE all men in uniform.

I'm pretty comfortable in my t-shirt and shorts. It's the standard issue computer nerd uniform.


I admire anyone in these service occupations. I don't try to grade them; they all put their lives on the line and go through periods of danger. Certainly, the servicemen/women on duty have sacrificed a great deal, giving up chunks of their lives to complete the mission. At least the police officer or firefighter can look forward to going home tonight.

But you never know what will hit you; it only takes one incident to change a life. I have an uncle who used to work for the Arlington Co. VFD. On 9/11 they called his company in to help at the Pentagon. He not only assisted in fire containment but the following body recovery. It was the most horrific ordeal he ever encountered, for its scale and knowing how it had happened. Less than a year later he quit the force but the memories are still with him.

It doesn't matter if you've been on a battlefield and have seen 1,000 men die in one day or if you've been involved in a one-on-one gunfight where one man died... that stuff never leaves you. And still, people come from all over to combat that? Every damn one of them kicks ass!

 

[Bruzilla]

I loved being a recruiter for the Navy in Pittsburgh. That was some of the best duty I ever had.

We had the equivalent of an infantryman in the Navy, jobs like Boatswain's Mates, Boiler Techs, etc., that were hard to fill. I never put anybody in those billets, but we had an E-8 at the NRD who could talk just about anyone into doing anything. I had a lot of folks come into my office wanting to work on airplanes, but after sitting down with that senior chief they would sign up to be whatever the Navy was short on at the time.

 

[Mikeinsmd]

You're just agreeing with her because she's cute!!!

Mmmmmm Hmmmmm......

 

[Dixie]

Nothing burns my ass more than some whiney punk complaining about the poor widdle soldiers who are fighting this war. Do these people think they're so sophisticated and smart that they know more about what's good for American adults than they themselves do? Do they think they're cool sitting on their asses while others are freeing a nation? Do they think they're being "compassionate" by giving patronizing pity to people who neither want nor need it?

There is nothing I hate more than an elitist liberal. Nothing. I get so damn sick and tired of listening to them thinking they're smarter and better than the men and women who are devoting themselves to democracy. 50 years from now, our soliders can look at a liberated Iraq and say, "We did that. We did." And all these pissers and moaners can say is that they sat on their fat asses and complained while others did the work.

Our ancestors fought and died to make the United States a sovreign nation. They fought and died to free black slaves in this country. They fought and died to defeat Hitler's regime. All throughout history, our men and women have looked at injustice and said, "That's not right and you can't do that", and they've gone off to right the wrong.

And now they're going off to right the wrong in Iraq and what do they get in return? Sneering condescension from some tard who watches reality TV shows and downloads naked pictures of Teri Hatcher off the internet.

They should feel completely humiliated and ashamed of themselves because they are an embarrassment to this country.

As a liberal (although not elitist) and retired 20 year veteran, I am neither humiliated nor ashamed, nor do I feel I am an embarassament to this country for feeling sorry for our men and women in uniform having to go out on a daily basis of what I'm sure must be pure hell over there. I have two liberal (although not elitist) friends that have served in Iraq (front lines I might add) and one Army friend (also a liberal) who just had his tour extended. They too are against this war and are neither humilitiated nor ashamed for feeling sorry for the men and women they left behind. I am not humilitated nor ashamed to feel sorry for the wives, husbands, kids, and parents who've lost their loved ones. I can empathize with that mother who has lost a child and says what the hell for. This country, to the best of my knowledge, was formed on dissension for the principles of freedom. We're still allowed to dissent, we're still free to dislike George Bush, we're still allowed to not support the war, we're still allowed to express our opinions, we can even be ashamed of the way our country's going on occasion. And still feel bad for the troops doing their job. By the way I'm still against the war and still feel badly enough for our "poor widdle" troops to stick some more wipes, suncreen and bug spray in the donation box in our office. How bout you guys, feeling sorry enough to donate?

 

[itsbob]

I loved being a recruiter for the Navy in Pittsburgh. That was some of the best duty I ever had.

We had the equivalent of an infantryman in the Navy, jobs like Boatswain's Mates, Boiler Techs, etc., that were hard to fill. I never put anybody in those billets, but we had an E-8 at the NRD who could talk just about anyone into doing anything. I had a lot of folks come into my office wanting to work on airplanes, but after sitting down with that senior chief they would sign up to be whatever the Navy was short on at the time.

When were you there?? i was a recruiter in the Pittsburgh BN... for the Army..

Got there in 96 and I retired in 2000

 

[Bustem' Down]

They are the consumate patriots today.

I have to disagree with you here, that is too generalized of a statement. Granted that the majority are, but there are those that are not. I myself am not patriotic. Yeah I like this country, but I don't get weepy over songs or stories. I joined to have a good paying job with decent benefits and will do the job 110% because I gave my word and my oath which for me, there is no stronger bond. I have also run into people in the military who are thieves, pimps, drug dealers, and pedophiles. Thankfully these type of people usually get caught and kicked out, but I would think you wouldn't want to call them patriots.

 

[hvp05]

Let us back the inaccurate train up a little bit. We know that he did have WMDs, and we know that Hussein's details of how they were "destroyed" don't mech with what we've found on the ground. For example, you don't drop thousands of liters of biotoxins into a hole in the ground and burn them without leaving a lot of trace evidence. And as for the allegation that the yellow cake uranium claim was wrong, the Senate Intelligence Committee thoroughly debunked that as a lie last month.

Granted, there were no WMDs found when we arrived, but that doesn't alter the fact that Hussein did have them at one time, and that he didn't have them when we got there, and there's little evidence to confirm that they were destroyed. That can only mean that they've been moved, not that Bush's (or Clinton's) data was wrong.

Just because a dope dealer flushes his stash down the toilet doesn't mean he's no longer a dope dealer.

Alright, well I hope we find them someday.

I don't doubt that Hussein had them "at one time" and the motivation to use them. But without them in safe custody we have to ask, "Where did they go?" If he buried them we may never find them without a good lead. If he gave them -- or the knowledge to make them -- to another ramstam leader there may be a problem. Maybe when we sweep Syria...

 

[itsbob]

Alright, well I hope we find them someday.

I don't doubt that Hussein had them "at one time" and the motivation to use them. But without them in safe custody we have to ask, "Where did they go?" If he buried them we may never find them without a good lead. If he gave them -- or the knowledge to make them -- to another ramstam leader there may be a problem. Maybe when we sweep Syria...

Sweep Syrai?? I hope by sweep you mean, blast them into oblivion..

 

[Mikeinsmd]

Sweep Syrai?? I hope by sweep you mean, blast them into oblivion..

...and soon too!!

 

[itsbob]

I have to disagree with you here, that is too generalized of a statement. Granted that the majority are, but there are those that are not. I myself am not patriotic. Yeah I like this country, but I don't get weepy over songs or stories. I joined to have a good paying job with decent benefits and will do the job 110% because I gave my word and my oath which for me, there is no stronger bond. I have also run into people in the military who are thieves, pimps, drug dealers, and pedophiles. Thankfully these type of people usually get caught and kicked out, but I would think you wouldn't want to call them patriots.

Well, the infantryman I worked with this was not the case.. maybe in the early 80's when the judge would hand out sentences, three years in jail, or three years in the Army.. but that was illegal by the early 80's..

We had our share of nickel and dime crooks.. stealing money left out.. but the urinalysis really cleaned the ranks of 90% of the druggies... alcohol was still a small problem, but 99.9% of the men i worked with were clean and honest people..

and ya know.. some of the ones that got caught up in the urinalysis were some of the people I wouldn't mind having my life depend on.. then of course there was the FAT, the EVIL fat.. OMG he has body fat over 22%.. kick hiim out before he ruins morale!! I notice that this is NOT a problem in the navy.. not that they aren't fat, but apparently nobody cares what their body fat is..

We normally policed our own.. and took care of our problems in house.. so either they shaped up, or were no longer there. 9 out of 10 times they shaped up.

 

[Pete]

Don't know, the years I was a recruiter the infantryman had to score over a 50.. the same qualifying score to be an airman.. or a crew chief.. or a linguist...what is referred to as a 3A. 31 is the qualifying score for entrance into the military.. and at times, like the first two months of a fiscal year we would let in our quota of 3B's, then were limited to only allowing those who scored better then 50.. and for those reading it saying damn, only a 50... this is a percetile score.. not a percentage of what they got right or wrong.. High Tech weapons demand smart people to operate them.

And in the years I was a recruiter I only put in MAYBE one or two infantryman... and that's what they came into my office wanting to be.. nothing else..

AND in the off chance we were allowed to put in a CAT-IV (16 -31) we had to put them into jobs like, Laundry and Bath Specialist.. or cook.. and did get ONE into a Dental Assistants job...

Currently all jobs in the CO feild (Combat) have the same required score which is CO-90 (AR (arithmetic) + CS (coding speed discontinued) + AS (Auto / shop) +MC (mechanical comprehension) Infantryman, cannon cockers, and the like

Linguist (as do most of the higher end jobs) have a special catagory ST which is made up of GS (general science) + VE (Word knowledge and reading comp) + MK (mechanical knowledge) + MC (mechanical comprehension) and require a higher minimum score of a ST-95.

The only job that has a lower minimum score than Infantryman is a "Laundry and shower specialist" So while I understand your pride in your niche of the Army and the subsequent chest beating, to insinuate that infantryman are basically rocket scientists who wanted to get dirty and shoot things is a little misleading.

I hold with my statement that many infantrymen, while courageous, honorable and should be celebrated, are those that did not set the ASVAB on fire thus they had to put their dreams of being a helicopter pilot (like Nick Cage and Tommy Lee Jones in that movie) on the back burner. Hey at least they are not "shower specialists" :shrug:

 

[Bustem' Down]

Well, the infantryman I worked with this was not the case.. maybe in the early 80's when the judge would hand out sentences, three years in jail, or three years in the Army.. but that was illegal by the early 80's..

We had our share of nickel and dime crooks.. stealing money left out.. but the urinalysis really cleaned the ranks of 90% of the druggies... alcohol was still a small problem, but 99.9% of the men i worked with were clean and honest people..

and ya know.. some of the ones that got caught up in the urinalysis were some of the people I wouldn't mind having my life depend on.. then of course there was the FAT, the EVIL fat.. OMG he has body fat over 22%.. kick hiim out before he ruins morale!! I notice that this is NOT a problem in the navy.. not that they aren't fat, but apparently nobody cares what their body fat is..

We normally policed our own.. and took care of our problems in house.. so either they shaped up, or were no longer there. 9 out of 10 times they shaped up.

Oh yes, the Evil Fat. They just changed out PRT policy because of fat. LOL it's still a joke though.

 

[itsbob]

Currently all jobs in the CO feild (Combat) have the same required score which is CO-90 (AR (arithmetic) + CS (coding speed discontinued) + AS (Auto / shop) +MC (mechanical comprehension) Infantryman, cannon cockers, and the like

Linguist (as do most of the higher end jobs) have a special catagory ST which is made up of GS (general science) + VE (Word knowledge and reading comp) + MK (mechanical knowledge) + MC (mechanical comprehension) and require a higher minimum score of a ST-95.

The only job that has a lower minimum score than Infantryman is a "Laundry and shower specialist" So while I understand your pride in your niche of the Army and the subsequent cheast beating, to insinuate that infantryman are basically rocket scientists who wanted to get dirty and shoot things is a little misleading.

I hold with my statement that many infantrymen are those that did not set the ASVAB on fire thus they had to put their dreams of being a helicopter pilot on the back burner. Hey at least they are not "shower specialists" :shrug:

Here you are talking "line scores"... what you first mentioned was their "military IQ" or AFQT score.. Line scores vary by military branch, bu the AFQT is applied equally throughout and scored the same.. a 50 for the Army is a 50 for the AF.. is a 50 for the MC.. the Army has 12 different (or was it ten) line scores, the Marines only have 4.. So FIRST they have to score the 50 AFQT score to qualify to get in (or as low as a 31 at times) THEN they look at the line scores to see what particular jobs they qualify for..

When you talk about AFQT it is a percentile score based on a highest possible score of 99... line scores are derived, and are a score out of a possible 150...

so the ST of 95 would be 95/ 150... not 95%....

so the CO score of 90 is 90/ 150...

And to find people with a 50 AFQT and ANY line score less then 100 is VERY rare.. so the infantryman with a 50 AFQT HAD the line socres to qualify to be a linguist, or a clerk, or a X-Ray Tech.. but for some reason he chose to be an infantryman..

 

[itsbob]

and yes, i have a LOT of pride with what I chose as my first profession...

and yes I like to beat on my chest every now and then...

and don't like to see "He was an infantryman becasue he couldn't do anything else"... that's pure BS... most of the people i worked with could have chosen from any of 15 or 20 other jobs.. but they didn't.