Religious vs. Atheist "converters"

[Kohburn]

So do any of you believe the sign "don't believe in god? you're not alone" was an attack on your belief?

a sign like that could just as easily be a religious sign as an anti-religion sign.

it all depends on the follow up information if you contacted whatever the sign advertised a connection to.

 

[sk8enscars]

Don't make me side with atheists in a religion forum?

1) mAlice isn't ignorant. The above accusation is baseless.

2) I think she could figure out the answer to the question since it's a hypothetical question about her own emotion.


3) Let's keep this respectful. Please.

I'm not making you side with anybody. I brought up a general observation earlier about religious people possibly feeling an obligation to share religion with others and atheists not seeming to have anything like that. mAlice responded. I responded back. She made some vague statement so I asked for clarification on what she was talking about (assuming "she") and she "ignored" me. I honestly could care less. I enjoy the dialogue... not for argument's sake... just to understand more. I don't think my comment was disrespectful... a little catty maybe. Just depends on what you read into it. I have yet to hear a response, so what else am I to think?

 

[mAlice]

I'm not making you side with anybody. I brought up a general observation earlier about religious people possibly feeling an obligation to share religion with others and atheists not seeming to have anything like that. mAlice responded. I responded back. She made some vague statement so I asked for clarification on what she was talking about (assuming "she") and she "ignored" me. I honestly could care less. I enjoy the dialogue... not for argument's sake... just to understand more. I don't think my comment was disrespectful... a little catty maybe. Just depends on what you read into it. I have yet to hear a response, so what else am I to think?

Could you rephrase the question?

 

[sk8enscars]

Could you rephrase the question?

Assuming you are seriously asking...
My original post was "Maybe it's part of the "religion" to CARE about others. When people honestly feel that you go to hell if you're not a believer, they may feel compelled to tell you in hopes that you will listen and believe. There is no atheist creed saying you have to care about others. There's nowhere to go according to an atheist, so why bother?"

Your response "We don't need someone to tell us to care about others. We just do it."

I probably should've made it clearer that I'm talking strictly religious beliefs and afterlife type scenarios.. I'm not saying that atheists don't care... I'm saying Why would they care about convincing other people of their beliefs? According to an atheist there is no consequence for being atheist. Or is there? That's my true question, even though I didn't come out and ask it.

Anyway, my statement was sarcastic, playing on your comment about "WE". Regardless of religion, there are people out there who don't care about people. For you to say "WE don't need someone to tell us" is no different than me saying WE "religious"* people don't go shoving our "religion" down other people's throats. Sarcasm. Surely you don't speak for all atheists.

I tried to make my point a little more clear because I am seriously interested in knowing if there is some system of beliefs that atheists DO follow. I never thought about it till now. "I was putting all the other stuff aside. My point is, any decent person would try to help another person, religion aside. If a restaurant served tainted food, most of us would feel a moral obligation to share that with others to keep them from harm. Likewise, religious people feel that if they know something, and their religion tells them to share, then they should. Atheists do not have anything apart from basic morals and values to share. There's no atheist "belief" that needs to be shared is there?"

You responded very vaguely. "That's a matter of opinion." WHAT is a matter of opinion? I made many many comments in there. You also said "I think there's a lot to share regarding the history of christianity, and how christianity came to be." What does that have to do with me asking about atheist "beliefs"?

So my original question... which really has nothing to do with my original post is What does the history of Christianity have to do with atheists' beliefs in the sense that I'm talking about? If there's something there, I want to know.

If anybody can enlighten me on the original topic, I'd be thrilled.

 

[pixiegirl]

Considering that the foundational teaching of Christianity is to make disciples (AKA the Great Commission)...I disagree with you.

Christians (at least the one's I know at Leonardtown Baptist Church) share their faith out of obedience to what Jesus taught and out of love for people who are outside of God's Kingdom.

That's just biblical Christianity. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.

How was His visit? Because its obvious either you are lying or He dropped by.

The word "WRONG" in caps above certainly seems to contradict you.

You are the one who said that sharing your faith is just for insecure people right?

And I answered and said "No, that's not why we share our faith."

You then have proceeded to take an accusatory and defensive tone, at least that is how it appears to me.

But if you feel like I attacked you, I apologize.

I didn't take an either accusatory nor defensive tone. I corrected you by saying that "promotion of faith" is not a "christian" rule but that of certain organized religions. You then got snotty and called me a liar. Flavor it however you want to make yourself feel better but the posts are all right here for God and everyone else to see. I gave my opinion, you gave yours sighting fact, I corrected your fact and you resorted to name calling, then when called on your behavior you try patronizing me.

 

[mAlice]

Assuming you are seriously asking...
My original post was "Maybe it's part of the "religion" to CARE about others. When people honestly feel that you go to hell if you're not a believer, they may feel compelled to tell you in hopes that you will listen and believe. There is no atheist creed saying you have to care about others. There's nowhere to go according to an atheist, so why bother?"

Your response "We don't need someone to tell us to care about others. We just do it."

I probably should've made it clearer that I'm talking strictly religious beliefs and afterlife type scenarios.. I'm not saying that atheists don't care... I'm saying Why would they care about convincing other people of their beliefs? According to an atheist there is no consequence for being atheist. Or is there? That's my true question, even though I didn't come out and ask it.

Anyway, my statement was sarcastic, playing on your comment about "WE". Regardless of religion, there are people out there who don't care about people. For you to say "WE don't need someone to tell us" is no different than me saying WE "religious"* people don't go shoving our "religion" down other people's throats. Sarcasm. Surely you don't speak for all atheists.

I tried to make my point a little more clear because I am seriously interested in knowing if there is some system of beliefs that atheists DO follow. I never thought about it till now. "I was putting all the other stuff aside. My point is, any decent person would try to help another person, religion aside. If a restaurant served tainted food, most of us would feel a moral obligation to share that with others to keep them from harm. Likewise, religious people feel that if they know something, and their religion tells them to share, then they should. Atheists do not have anything apart from basic morals and values to share. There's no atheist "belief" that needs to be shared is there?"

You responded very vaguely. "That's a matter of opinion." WHAT is a matter of opinion? I made many many comments in there. You also said "I think there's a lot to share regarding the history of christianity, and how christianity came to be." What does that have to do with me asking about atheist "beliefs"?

So my original question... which really has nothing to do with my original post is What does the history of Christianity have to do with atheists' beliefs in the sense that I'm talking about? If there's something there, I want to know.

If anybody can enlighten me on the original topic, I'd be thrilled.

Not being sarcastic, but this is why I didn't answer your last question. If you give me a direct question, I'll give you a direct answer. I have more important things to do than read your little novelette.

 

[toppick08]

Not being sarcastic, but this is why I didn't answer your last question. If you give me a direct question, I'll give you a direct answer. I have more important things to do than read your little novelette.

like what ?

 

[Zguy28]

I didn't take an either accusatory nor defensive tone. I corrected you by saying that "promotion of faith" is not a "christian" rule but that of certain organized religions. You then got snotty and called me a liar. Flavor it however you want to make yourself feel better but the posts are all right here for God and everyone else to see. I gave my opinion, you gave yours sighting fact, I corrected your fact and you resorted to name calling, then when called on your behavior you try patronizing me.

I'm struggling to see how you can correct a fact? Isn't a fact truth?

EDIT: I have sat down and thought about this for a while and I'm thinking that perhaps I wasn't too sarcastic or snotty. I do think you weren't being truthful.

But anyways, arguing with you does not seem to get anywhere, but I think you should be fair and show the entire context of our argument:

Exactly. I think that anyone that promotes anything knowing your opinion on something be it meat or God, or lack there of is rude and insecure. If you really believe in something yourself you don't need other people to believe with you. You can polietely give or discuss your side without being disrespectful of the other.

Considering that the foundational teaching of Christianity is to make disciples (AKA the Great Commission)...I disagree with you.

Christians (at least the one's I know at Leonardtown Baptist Church) share their faith out of obedience to what Jesus taught and out of love for people who are outside of God's Kingdom.

That's just biblical Christianity. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.

I apologize for this last part. Looking back I can see how it comes across with an attitude.

Is that why you yelled at me in the next post?

WRONG. That would not be a foundational teaching of Christianity, that would be a foundational teaching of certain organized religions.

Um...no.

Jesus commanded His disciples to go and make disciples. That was His Missio Dei.

Quote:
"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
~ Luke 19:10

Hmm...let's see, that's the founder speaking.

Here's another from Jesus where He instructs His disciples to follow His Missio Dei:

Quote:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
~Matthew 28:16-20 Emphasis mine

Its not certain organized sects or denominations of Christianity. Its every one. Its "the Way" as in "the Way, the Truth, and the Life." In a word, its foundational, because the Founder left it with us.

But it is much more than that also. For instance Jesus taught that kindness and charity and compassion should flow out from those who follow Him as disciples:

Quote:
18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"

29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
~ Luke 18:18-30


Then the Lord's brother James the Apostle echoes it:

Quote:
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
~James 1:27

And so does the Apostle Paul:

Quote:
"But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God."
~ 1 Tim 5:4


And that is our "organized" religion.

A requirement of Christianity is belief in Jesus NOT belief in the bible word for word.

True. I know several Christians who don't believe in Inerrancy.

What they consider authoritative though always puzzles me. For instance, how can they know anything about what Jesus taught is true. They can be swayed by any wind of doctrine that comes along. Eh...who knows. Not a battle I'm willing to fight right now. I'm tired.

Pixie trys, really really hard!!!!

There's no "try" about it. Until God himself comes knocking on my door telling me that I need to push my beliefs onto other people I will not. Nor will I damn anyone else for not believing the same things I do.

I consider this a pretty hostile tone. Maybe I'm just strange like that?

How was His visit? Because its obvious either you are lying or He dropped by.

The word "WRONG" in caps above certainly seems to contradict you.

Here is where I accused you of lying. Since just the fact that you are on here calling people who share insecure, and telling people that their way is not the right way is doing the same as sharing.

The definition of Christianity is a logical one, not a theological one so there is a right and wrong answer.

I'm not "pushing" anything and its unfortunate that you see me defending my beliefs which were attacked first if you care to go back and look as pushing my beliefs upon you.

You are the one who said that sharing your faith is just for insecure people right?

And I answered and said "No, that's not why we share our faith."

You then have proceeded to take an accusatory and defensive tone, at least that is how it appears to me.

But if you feel like I attacked you, I apologize.

I didn't take an either accusatory nor defensive tone. I corrected you by saying that "promotion of faith" is not a "christian" rule but that of certain organized religions. You then got snotty and called me a liar. Flavor it however you want to make yourself feel better but the posts are all right here for God and everyone else to see. I gave my opinion, you gave yours sighting fact, I corrected your fact and you resorted to name calling, then when called on your behavior you try patronizing me.

 

[Silver301]

You claim to be agnostic.

Then you refer to faith as mass-delusion.
You refer to faith as ignorant and medieval.
Then you refer to people of faith as ignorant.
With one good pinch on the ass out the door with a knock on the bible.



That doesn't sound "agnostic" to me.


Just grow a pair, and call yourself an atheist. It's cool. I won't punch you in the face.

I swear.


To God.

Being agnostic implies self-admitted ignorance towards the unknown. I don't know whether a god or gods exist, and I'm ok with that. Being an atheist would imply that I know that there is no god. How can I make fun of the morons who think they have it all figured out, if I become a moron who thinks he has it all figured out?

As far as picking on religion...just because I'm agnostic doesn't mean I think all ideas regarding belief are equally valid. You, and billions of others, are basing your life on books that were written around the time the wheelbarrow was an example of "Up and Coming" technology. Considering the advances we've made in other fields, don't you think we should take a second look at our beliefs?

Most atheists are only atheist in that they don't believe in the god or gods of any existing religions...they are still open to the concept of a god, but they are rational people who don't believe simply because they want to, so they demand proof before believing. This makes them agnostic, whether they know it or not.

 

[Silver301]

For further clarity, here are some quotes from Bertrand Russell, a famous agnostic philosopher...


"As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God.

On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods. "


"An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time."

 

[This_person]

I was curious to see how many people have been approached by others. Please hold for the poll.

I believe, I've discussed both my views and the relative merits of others' views. When told someone else has heard enough, I stop - there's no point in speaking with someone with a closed mind.

I find that people who do not believe are more ignorant of their arguments of what they do believe than most religious people are about arguments regarding why they believe. Most atheists have all sorts of arguments for why they don't believe in one religion or another, but are clueless as to the faults with evolution/abiogenesis. I think that's very funny.

 

[Cowgirl]

Most atheists have all sorts of arguments for why they don't believe in one religion or another, but are clueless as to the faults with evolution/abiogenesis. I think that's very funny.

So take me for example. I haven't read the bible. I don't believe because I have no proof. I'm sorry, but I don't have faith that some magical being in the sky created us. I believe that we are products of evolution.

I have to disprove everything in order to prove what I believe in?

 

[mAlice]

So my original question... which really has nothing to do with my original post is What does the history of Christianity have to do with atheists' beliefs in the sense that I'm talking about? If there's something there, I want to know.

If anybody can enlighten me on the original topic, I'd be thrilled.

Okay, finding time to read this, which really isn't much help, to answer this question...

In order to understand you'd have to study it yourself. You can't expect someone to give you the answers on a forum because there are too many reasons, and we each understand things differently, but I'll give you a few examples.

 

[mAlice]

So take me for example. I haven't read the bible. I don't believe because I have no proof. I'm sorry, but I don't have faith that some magical being in the sky created us. I believe that we are products of evolution.

I have to disprove everything in order to prove what I believe in?

One can't prove or disprove, that man is here due to evolution or creation. The problem with many christians is that they are not willing to look outside the box (or bible), so they can't relate to not believing in an entity. There are tons of books out there to support my thought process.

I just don't understand the refusal to try and understand a different point of view. I also don't understand how someone can be told "it's true", and just accept that based on a single book that they are told is the word of god, because it says it's "inspired by god". The book was written by men who wanted to control people. Those same men determined what was deemed acceptable for that book (not the gnostic scriptures Nag Hammadi Library ).

I guess it's easier for them to make statements like "people who do not believe are more ignorant of their arguments of what they do believe than most religious people are about arguments regarding why they believe."

Atheists are no more more ignorant than christians, if you use the word ignorant correctly.

Just a few more examples why I don't believe.

 

[Cowgirl]

One can't prove or disprove, that man is here due to evolution or creation. The problem with many christians is that they are not willing to look outside the box (or bible), so they can't relate to not believing in an entity. There are tons of books out there to support my thought process.

I just don't understand the refusal to try and understand a different point of view. I also don't understand how someone can be told "it's true", and just accept that based on a single book that they are told is the word of god, because it says it's "inspired by god". The book was written by men who wanted to control people. Those same men determined what was deemed acceptable for that book (not the gnostic scriptures Nag Hammadi Library ).

I guess it's easier for them to make statements like "people who do not believe are more ignorant of their arguments of what they do believe than most religious people are about arguments regarding why they believe."

Atheists are no more more ignorant than christians, if you use the word ignorant correctly.

Just a few more examples why I don't believe.

I agree with you. Maybe I misunderstood This_person.

 

[This_person]

So take me for example. I haven't read the bible. I don't believe because I have no proof. I'm sorry, but I don't have faith that some magical being in the sky created us. I believe that we are products of evolution.

I have to disprove everything in order to prove what I believe in?

Not at all. Again, I find it pointless to try and disprove someone else's argument - they're not going to agree with your argument because faith is built of lack of proof (if there were proof, it wouldn't be faith, y'know?).

My point was that there are huge faults with evolution/abiogenesis (like, for example, PROOF ). MOST (clearly not you, which is VERY okay) atheists try and study the Bible to provide their version of proof the Bible is wrong, but can't intelligently argue against the faults with evolution/abiogenesis.

That's all.

 

[Cowgirl]

Not at all. Again, I find it pointless to try and disprove someone else's argument - they're not going to agree with your argument because faith is built of lack of proof (if there were proof, it wouldn't be faith, y'know?).

My point was that there are huge faults with evolution/abiogenesis (like, for example, PROOF ). MOST (clearly not you, which is VERY okay) atheists try and study the Bible to provide their version of proof the Bible is wrong, but can't intelligently argue against the faults with evolution/abiogenesis.

That's all.

I know that there are some holes in evolution. But you can't deny that there is proof of evolution.

And I don't study the bible to try to disprove things...because I find it incredibly boring. :shrug: And my mind shuts off as soon as I see people quoting the bible on here. I can't make myself read it.

I'm never going to try to change someone's opinion. I might give my point of view, but I don't expect others to agree with me.

 

[This_person]

One can't prove or disprove, that man is here due to evolution or creation....Atheists are no more more ignorant than christians, if you use the word ignorant correctly.

I disagree. Most atheists will tell you there is proof of evolution, when there is not (there is conjecture).

Most people who tout evolution speak of it as though the concept of humans springing forth from sponges has a provable thing. It's not, and you are an exception to recognizing and admitting that. It takes faith

 

[sk8enscars]

Not being sarcastic, but this is why I didn't answer your last question. If you give me a direct question, I'll give you a direct answer. I have more important things to do than read your little novelette.

I'm not sure how I can be anymore direct. I don't even care now anyway.

 

[This_person]

I know that there are some holes in evolution. But you can't deny that there is proof of evolution.

There's proof of species changing. There is also proof of species NOT changing.

There is no proof that horses, bats, and humans all have a common ancestor.

That leap takes faith.

I'm never going to try to change someone's opinion. I might give my point of view, but I don't expect others to agree with me.

We're on the same trail here, then.