Sentencing Phase for England Set to Begin

[Larry Gude]

Vince...

...how do you get past the motivation this may have given our enemies?

This is not some after the fact investigation. It happened while action was still happening.

 

[Vince]

...how do you get past the motivation this may have given our enemies?

This is not some after the fact investigation. It happened while action was still happening.

I really don't know how this motivated them any more, but it can't be any worse than the killing and beheading they are doing to the troops and prisoners now. A prisoner can only get so dead. They take prisoners and 9 out of 10 times the prisoners end up dead. How much more motivated can you get than "kill all infidels." I admit that prisoner abuse is not something I condone, but we didn't hang these guys on national TV or behead them on the internet. They don't play by the same rules. Their are too many in this country that want to play by the rules for this war. THERE ARE NO RULES IN WAR. They have one, kill all infidels. Period. And we have to make a nice, by the rules, war just to show the rest of the world we are more civilized. Now I'm rambling, but the point is that I don't think these prisoners were so abused that we need to apologize to the world and hang the perpetrators.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

I really don't know how this motivated them any more, but it can't be any worse than the killing and beheading they are doing to the troops and prisoners now. A prisoner can only get so dead.

It's NOT worse, by any stretch than Zaqarwi gutting people on video BUT let's turn this around to make the point of how it affects the battlefield:

If you are Achmed and you're fighting US Marines day in and day out and getting your hat handed to you, time after time and you're starting to think this is starting to not be worth it and your comrades are starting to go home, to leave fights at first contact, to not show up for tactical meetings or ambushes and then, suddenly, your leaders are jumping up and down like organ grinder monkeys;

"Look!" they say, "Look what will happen to us ALL if we give up the fight, if we lose, then US will let it's women chain you like animals!"

My point is that it helps the moral of an enemy who might otherwise set one less IED or might have a few less hands in a firefight. There might be 5 or 10 or 100 Gomers who stay home in Saudi or Syria instead of running off to fight the Infidel if there's no Abu Gariab.

Our kid worked intel and he knows what happens on the battlefield in relation to X event. He can't say jack in detail but if his opinion is that it does not help then that is different and worse for our grunts than an opinion that it doesn't matter.

 

[Ken King]

I really don't know how this motivated them any more, but it can't be any worse than the killing and beheading they are doing to the troops and prisoners now. A prisoner can only get so dead. They take prisoners and 9 out of 10 times the prisoners end up dead. How much more motivated can you get than "kill all infidels." I admit that prisoner abuse is not something I condone, but we didn't hang these guys on national TV or behead them on the internet. They don't play by the same rules. Their are too many in this country that want to play by the rules for this war. THERE ARE NO RULES IN WAR. They have one, kill all infidels. Period. And we have to make a nice, by the rules, war just to show the rest of the world we are more civilized. Now I'm rambling, but the point is that I don't think these prisoners were so abused that we need to apologize to the world and hang the perpetrators.

The motivation comes from things other than this and I doubt if "the pictures" or the alleged abuses motivated one single insurgent to come forward. The simple fact that we are over there is all that they needed to drive them to act.

Chew on this. Pvt England posed, as directed, for a few pictures and many think she should be severely reprimanded, John Kerry admits to killing a wounded enemy soldier and close to half the nation hailed him as a hero.

 

[Larry Gude]

England is being railroaded...

The motivation comes from things other than this and I doubt if "the pictures" or the alleged abuses motivated one single insurgent to come forward. The simple fact that we are over there is all that they needed to drive them to act.

Chew on this. Pvt England posed, as directed, for a few pictures and many think she should be severely reprimanded, John Kerry admits to killing a wounded enemy soldier and close to half the nation hailed him as a hero.

...and you military types know what level of punishement she probably deserves and it ain't 11 years.

Having said that, I think you're selling short the phsycological impact. We're not engaged in WWII type total war where nothing fazes anyone.

Or no?

 

[Vince]

...and you military types know what level of punishement she probably deserves and it ain't 11 years.

Having said that, I think you're selling short the phsycological impact. We're not engaged in WWII type total war where nothing fazes anyone.

Or no?

We have access to the internet, TV, newspapers, etc. How many Iraqi do you think have the same access and actually saw what was publicized on this incident. Hearing it from a source in their army is not the same as seeing it. And they are probably fed so much propaganda, they don't know what to believe. But the same goes whether they saw it or not. They are motivated by their beliefs to kill all infidels, and that includes you, me, your mother, father, etc. They are already motivated by their beliefs. And you are correct "we are not engaged in a WWII type total war, BUT THEY SURE AS HELL ARE. We need to get the same mind set and start making war on these people like they've never seen. I said it before, "war is something to be avoided, but if you're going to make war, make it hell so they'll never want another.

 

[Larry Gude]

Anh...

...we're starting to get at cross purposes, Vince. If you're comfortable with the position that what she and others did did not negatively affect our efforts then at least that's decided; we disagree.

Leading some poor smuck around on a leash does us not one bit of good. If we're gonna risk outraging them let's do it by blowing up a moasque full of insurgents and weapons. At least that we can stand by as an appropriate action taken on the enemy.

If this is their idea of 'total' war, run and hide, set bombs on the side of the road and maybe kill a GI every once in awhile, not even one a day, then this thing is won and it is a matter of running them to ground.

Maybe you're right. Maybe Abu Garaib doesn't mean anything to anyone but Dan Rather.

 

[vraiblonde]

If you're comfortable with the position that what she and others did did not negatively affect our efforts then at least that's decided; we disagree.

You're right, Larry. Wouldn't want to piss off the people we're at war with.

If we're gonna risk outraging them let's do it by blowing up a moasque full of insurgents and weapons.

Yeah, can't put panties on their head - that's cruel - but blowing them up is just A-OK.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well let's see...

You're right, Larry. Wouldn't want to piss off the people we're at war with.

Yeah, can't put panties on their head - that's cruel - but blowing them up is just A-OK.

...how about we just forget this whole POW thing shall we? What's the point? When they put their arms up let's just tell the boys to hose 'em down, leave 'em where they fall.

Let's forget having any rules or standards. Let's toss out any silly ideas of leadership and just Ghengis Khan their ass. Kill all the males, rape the women so that the next generation are at least part 'Merican.

How'd that be?

In fact, if there's to be no rules that have to be observed, shouldn't we just get our people out of there and drop the big one? I mena just kill everyone, friend, foe, everyone and everything?

You like?

Maybe we should just turn ol' Saddam loose. He used to do things your way.

 

[vraiblonde]

...how about we just forget this whole POW thing shall we? What's the point? When they put their arms up let's just tell the boys to hose 'em down, leave 'em where they fall.

Fine with me. :shrug:

Maybe we should just turn ol' Saddam loose. He used to do things your way.

He did???? Wow! And all this time I thought he was gang raping young girls, cutting off body parts and feeding people into the wood chipper. Now you tell me all he was doing was making fun of them. *whew* What a relief!

 

[Larry Gude]

You, of all people...

Fine with me. :shrug:

He did???? Wow! And all this time I thought he was gang raping young girls, cutting off body parts and feeding people into the wood chipper. Now you tell me all he was doing was making fun of them. *whew* What a relief!

...are now interested in ignoring rules.

The woman testified, at her trial, that she done wrong and knew it.

 

[vraiblonde]

The woman testified, at her trial, that she done wrong and new it.

She's half retarded - she doesn't "now" ####. All she knows is what her superiors and lawyer told her to say to get her CO out of trouble.

...are now interesting in ignoring rules.

When the rules are stupid and cost Americans their lives, yes.

That lame argument about "not wanting to piss them off" is totally unlike you. Who are you and where is my husband???? They were already butchering our guys and partying with their severed body parts BEFORE those pics came out. And we're worried about them getting pissed because of a leash around a neck and a pair of panties on a head?????

To hell with them. Why aren't WE pissed??? Why aren't WE motivated by THEIR actions to slaughter every last one of them??? Do they just love their countrymen more than we love ours????

 

[Vince]

To hell with them. Why aren't WE pissed??? Why aren't WE motivated by THEIR actions to slaughter every last one of them??? Do they just love their countrymen more than we love ours????

And we didn't go to their country and perform acts of terrorism. They decided to come here and kill a couple thousand people through their acts of cowardice. We did not start this crap, but I venture to say we will end it. And it won't be an ending like Vietnam.

 

[vraiblonde]

And while I'm on a roll, let me just tell you something else:


This George Bush bullshit about trying to "win the hearts" of Arabs is stupid crap barely worthy of some 60's era hippie liberal. To hell with their "hearts". They bought it, now they pay for it. Any tard Iraqi who voices one single complaint about the US should be shot on sight, no questions asked. And that goes for any other camel jockey who thinks things were just oh so peachy in Saddam's Iraq or the Taliban's Afghanistan.

 

[Larry Gude]

Oh here we go...

And we didn't go to their country and perform acts of terrorism. They decided to come here and kill a couple thousand people through their acts of cowardice. We did not start this crap, but I venture to say we will end it. And it won't be an ending like Vietnam.

...off the deep end.

'They', Iraqi's, didn't come here.

 

[vraiblonde]

'They', Iraqi's, didn't come here.

Oh, now you sound like friggin' John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi.

 

[Larry Gude]

You gotta love the whole jury by internet craze...

She's half retarded - she doesn't "now" ####. All she knows is what her superiors and lawyer told her to say to get her CO out of trouble.

You could have saved everyone a lot of time and trouble had you just let them know you already knew all the facts.

How does it cost American lives by treating prisoners like prisoner instead of somebodys ##### at Pelican Bay?

That lame argument about "not wanting to piss them off" is totally unlike you. Who are you and where is my husband???? They were already butchering our guys and partying with their severed body parts BEFORE those pics came out. And we're worried about them getting pissed because of a leash around a neck and a pair of panties on a head?????

You're high. I could care less about pissing them off when a trooper puts a round through some gomers coconut but I do care about stiring up hornets nest uneccesarily by some dipshit REMF's who don't have to face the sharp end.

To hell with them. Why aren't WE pissed??? Why aren't WE motivated by THEIR actions to slaughter every last one of them???

You can play armchair Patton breathing fire all you want and ignore what the boy told you. he was there. it does NOT help.

One more thing for you to condsider while you're drooling for blood; Intentionally humiliating a culture INCLUDES making things tougher for those who are sticking their necks out, on OUR side, every day trying to be a good Iraqi cop and Patriot. If they're seen as siding with people who fit the characiture of Americans who could care less about how anything looks or seems, it don't help them either.

Any tard Iraqi who voices one single complaint about the US should be shot on sight, no questions asked. And that goes for any other camel jockey who thinks things were just oh so peachy in Saddam's Iraq or the Taliban's Afghanistan.

Welcome to Vrai world. England is an idiot, trained by the greatest power on the earth BTW, who is not responsible for crap but any 'tard' Iraqi or 'camel jockey' who's lived under a regime of terror their whole life who objects to
squat that just may happen to be a cultural thing gets one between the eyes.

That's just great.

 

[Larry Gude]

Who sounds like Kerry?

Oh, now you sound like friggin' John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi.

You're making up crap to justify your myopic position, backing yourself into a corner by pretending everything is a crisis deserving of scorched earth and I'm John Kerry?

 

[Ken King]

Larry,

I just don't see anything wrong softening up some of these guys for interrogation. Vince touched on it earlier talking about how our military training schools did equal or worse to us in training scenarios designed to evaluate our reactions to the treatment and give us a "taste" of what we might expect. Hell, they had videos of it too. It just didn’t make the news.

Now if we train to expect similar abuses, because we know the “other guys” are actually going to do much worse, isn’t it logical that no matter what the rules are we are going to do what is necessary to win the war. If putting panties on the head of one of these vermin (or a leash or laughing at his genitals) garnered information saving one of ours then damn right it’s worth it.

What I see that made this an issue is that pictures did make the press and that press is what spread the partial picture of the abuses of war. Like everything else they tell the side of the story that paints us in bad light while making the real abusers, torturers, or murderers out to be helpless victims.

War isn’t pretty, I don’t know why many feel it should be.

 

[Vince]

...off the deep end.

'They', Iraqi's, didn't come here.

If you wish to believe that there is no connection what so ever between Sadam/Iraq and Al Qaeda, then I won't say another word on the subject.