SM Hospital and Ministers.

[2ndAmendment]

What is a Catlick you arrogant, stupid ass?

Funky has been duped by a minister into believing what he/she is posting. There are far too many ministers that preach you have to come to my church and believe my way; everyone else is wrong. Sad.

The church I go to emphasizes the gift of tongues too much. I told the pastors about it. They choose to persist in the emphasis. Does it bother me? No. Are they not Christians? No. If they wern't, I would no longer be a part of that church

I think the statues in a Catholic church are not in accordance with the Bible. As far as confessing to a priest, we are instructed to confess our sins to one another; you are less likely to continue in your sin if you are not hiding it if you are a Christian. But secret confession does somewhat defeat the purpose.

I don't agree with praying to the saints. All Christians are saints according to the Bible and I certainly don't want anyone praying to me, alive or dead. A Catholic posted in this forum that Catholics don't pray to the saints but ask the saints to pray for them just like asking another Christian to pray for you; I can accept that, but the practice can be questionable in my mind if the person praying does not truly understand that.

Purgatory is just not Biblical and was one of the major concepts, new at the time, that caused the reformation or schism. It provides false hope for Christian family of non Christians that have died in my opinion.

Are any of these sins that will condemn you to hell. I don't think so, but I am not the One setting the standard.

Catholics have the only thing that is necessary for salvation. Faith in Y'shua, Jesus, as Savior and Lord. That is what makes one a Christian. Everything else makes you part of a denomination. I choose to be a Christian first above all denominational dogma.

There is only one Church. That is the body of believers in Jesus. It is not a denomination or a building. I have Christian brothers and sisters all over the world that I have not met. We have at some things in common; Y'shua is our Savior and Lord, God is our Father, and the Holy Spirit lives in us.

 

[MMDad]

Funky has been duped by a minister into believing what he/she is posting. There are far too many ministers that preach you have to come to my church and believe my way; everyone else is wrong. Sad.

That's why I am no longer Mormon. My way or the highway doesn't fit into the Bible that I read.

 

[2ndAmendment]

That's why I am no longer Mormon. My way or the highway doesn't fit into the Bible that I read.

The one question to ask Mormons to find out if Mormonism is a cult or a Christian denomination is, "Do Mormons believe Jesus is God?" As I understand it, Mormons don't; they believe Jesus was just a man. That is not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus even equated Himself to the Father.

John 14:6-12

6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Oneness with the Father

7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

11"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

I was in Salt Lake City and went through the Mormon Visitors center in the square. It is very beautiful. I even considered becoming a Mormon. I found Mormons are usually nice people. The Mormon religion is legalistic; no caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, etc. Hey, it is probably good for you, but it won't get you to heaven.

It is just like the Jehovah's Witnesses say that only 144,000 are going to heaven. They base that on Rev 7:4. I ask them what tribe of Israel they belong to. I get, "huh?" Then I show the scripture to them in context.

Revelation 7:4-17

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,

6from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,

7from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,

8from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

A Multitude from the Tribulation

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

12saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"

14I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15"For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

16"They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;

17for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

So there are 144,000 Jews that will be saved and a great multitude of those that "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." The Lamb, of course, is Y'shua, Jesus.

So there are organizations that will lead many astray. The Bible says it will happen.

God bless you all. May you find the Truth. It is not "out there"; it is in the Bible. Read it; pray for God's wisdom as you do.

Find a group of Christians to worship and fellowship with. It helps you find strength when you know others are going through the same battles you are. The battle is spiritual.

Sunday is Easter. There is no better day to start your walk with Christ.

 

[Funky Brewster]

What is a Catlick you arrogant, stupid ass?

Do you normally use such foul language in a religious forum?

 

[Funky Brewster]

Are any of these sins that will condemn you to hell. I don't think so, but I am not the One setting the standard.

How wrong you are. The littlest sin condemns you to hell.

For the wages of sin is death!

 

[MMDad]

Could this be a slotted MPD?

 

[willie]

Do you normally use such foul language in a religious forum?

Explain to me what Catlick means and I'll explain how "arrogant, stupid ass" is appropriate.

 

[Tonio]

I have no problem saying that fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, murderers, sinners of all types are on their way to hell if they don't repent and find salvation from God through His plan; just any old plan does not work.

I can see your point, but I'm talking about personal beliefs, not actions.

While you and I disagree about homosexuality and fornication, I have no problem condemning adultery and criticizing the people who cheat on their spouses. Not because the Bible condemns it, but because adultery is about lying and betrayal, about breaking promises. I see the concept of right and wrong as about whether an action helps or hurts other people. I think that concept transcends all religions and all belief systems. The difference between basic right and wrong and, say, the Ten Commandments, is that the first few Commandments are explicit doctrines about deity.

Adultery, robbery, and murder have been committed by people from all belief systems. It's not necessarily about the belief systems, but about the people who commit those henious actions. I asked this in another thread--if one person believes in the divinity of Jesus while the other person believes in the divinity of Buddha, but the two people act the same, then what difference should their beliefs make to other people? All of us judge each other by our actions when those affect other people, but a person's personal beliefs about deity and spirituality aren't anyone else's business.

 

[2ndAmendment]

How wrong you are. The littlest sin condemns you to hell.

For the wages of sin is death!

True. And the blood of Jesus covers them all. You seem to be very legalistic like the scribes and Pharisees.

And you seem to keep missing the gift of forgiveness because we can't do it on our own. Are you sinless? Really? Are you?

I'm not. If I were, I would not need Jesus. Since I am not sinless, I need Jesus. He is my Savior and Lord.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I can see your point, but I'm talking about personal beliefs, not actions.

While you and I disagree about homosexuality and fornication, I have no problem condemning adultery and criticizing the people who cheat on their spouses. Not because the Bible condemns it, but because adultery is about lying and betrayal, about breaking promises. I see the concept of right and wrong as about whether an action helps or hurts other people. I think that concept transcends all religions and all belief systems. The difference between basic right and wrong and, say, the Ten Commandments, is that the first few Commandments are explicit doctrines about deity.

Adultery, robbery, and murder have been committed by people from all belief systems. It's not necessarily about the belief systems, but about the people who commit those henious actions. I asked this in another thread--if one person believes in the divinity of Jesus while the other person believes in the divinity of Buddha, but the two people act the same, then what difference should their beliefs make to other people? All of us judge each other by our actions when those affect other people, but a person's personal beliefs about deity and spirituality aren't anyone else's business.

It does not matter what difference it means to people. It matters what difference it means to God.

But you will disagree and this will not be settled no matter how many times we go back and forth unless you really find faith in God or I lose mine.

 

[itsbob]

The one question to ask Mormons to find out if Mormonism is a cult or a Christian denomination is, "Do Mormons believe Jesus is God?" As I understand it, Mormons don't; they believe Jesus was just a man. That is not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus even equated Himself to the Father.

That's not 100% true.. Mormons do believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Trinity. (father, son and the holy spirit) They believe the holy trinity are three separate "personages" not the one and the same. They believe God is God, Jesus was A son of God.. Jesus is NOT God, but God's son.. He has returned to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God.. You can't sit next to yourself can you??

Mormons strive to maintain the highest level of exaltation. They believe there are three levels of heaven, and only unforgivable sin(ners) can not be allowed into "heaven" and will be cast out for all time and eternity. Those would include murders, child rapists, those that were taught the rules of God and cast them aside.. Non-believers(those not given the chance to learn on the earth) will be given a chance to repent upon arrival, and can attain higher levels of heaven.

The lowest level will be a paradise beyond anyone's belief on earth, or what most Christians see Heaven as.

This is my favorite part of Mormonism.. They believe all babaies live in heaven with God prior to birth as spirits seeking out mortal bodies. God and the baby's spirit choose who they are going to be with on earth. When a baby is born he can not communicate with the earth bound for he is still in possession of all knowledge from the other side, the veil is still up when a baby is born, they are pure, and have pure knowledge. The knowledge can't be shared, so they have no means to communicate. AS they grow on earth, their knowledge of earth grows, and the veil is slowly lowered.

Look into the eyes of a baby and what you see is purity.. Pure knowledge, pure love..

 

[Tonio]

But you will disagree and this will not be settled no matter how many times we go back and forth unless you really find faith in God or I lose mine.

I believe in a God for different reasons than you believe, and that's the way it should be. In the ethical sense, each of us is entitled to our own personal religious beliefs. I don't want to change your own religious beliefs or anyone else's. But I strongly object when you or anyone else wants to change my religious beliefs.

 

[JPC, Sr.]

Faith Without Works is Dead.

I can see your point, but I'm talking about personal beliefs, not actions.

While you and I disagree about homosexuality and fornication, I have no problem condemning adultery and criticizing the people who cheat on their spouses. Not because the Bible condemns it, but because adultery is about lying and betrayal, about breaking promises. I see the concept of right and wrong as about whether an action helps or hurts other people. I think that concept transcends all religions and all belief systems. The difference between basic right and wrong and, say, the Ten Commandments, is that the first few Commandments are explicit doctrines about deity.

Adultery, robbery, and murder have been committed by people from all belief systems. It's not necessarily about the belief systems, but about the people who commit those henious actions. I asked this in another thread--if one person believes in the divinity of Jesus while the other person believes in the divinity of Buddha, but the two people act the same, then what difference should their beliefs make to other people? All of us judge each other by our actions when those affect other people, but a person's personal beliefs about deity and spirituality aren't anyone else's business.

I agree with this "Tonio" post as his in thinking for himself instead of orthodoxy.

So still it is not right to blame the churches for misleading the people whether it be Catholic or one of the Protestant Churches or some religious cult, because the problem is explained in the Bible at;

Exodus 20:19And the people said to Moses, you speak with us and we will hear you, but do not let God speak to us because we will die.

This is why people go to churches to get the Priest or Ministers or Shamans to talk to God for them because people are afraid to go directly to God - lest they die. History has a few persons that had the courage but it is few indeed. Therefore the churches tell people what to believe and the people do believe as they are told and the common mentality is that there is some strength in big numbers as in if the Catholics are wrong and go to the Devil then they believe that all Catholics go as a group so the persons feel safe before God, and if the Minister / Pastor / Priest said anything is religiously okay then it can be said that it is the clergy's fault if God does get angry.

Thus the organized religions are a crutch to hide behind so the churches do serve a real purpose by standing between the frightened masses and their fears. It is the same stuff today as the Bible tells it was thousands of years ago.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I agree with this "Tonio" post as his in thinking for himself instead of orthodoxy.
....

Why do you bother to go to church if you don't believe what they preach? Lonely? Voices in your head get drowned out by the singing? Just to see if you can get anyone to talk to you? It certainly isn't to hear the sermon. You certainly don't take what is said to you in the sermon or in person to heart.

 

[Tonio]

I agree with this "Tonio" post as his in thinking for himself instead of orthodoxy.

Thanks for your praise, although I strongly disagree with your insulting, superior assessment of churchgoers as "frightened masses."

Why do you bother to go to church if you don't believe what they preach?

Excellent point. Certaintly churchgoers can debate or question some aspects of their churches' doctrines, or the teachings handed down by denomination leaders. But if they don't agree with the core teachings, they might be better served by finding churches that fit their own beliefs.

 

[JPC, Sr.]

Faith Without Works is dead.

Why do you bother to go to church if you don't believe what they preach? Lonely? Voices in your head get drowned out by the singing? Just to see if you can get anyone to talk to you? It certainly isn't to hear the sermon. You certainly don't take what is said to you in the sermon or in person to heart.

Yes, that is correct.

 

[JPC, Sr.]

Faith Without Works is dead.

Thanks for your praise, although I strongly disagree with your insulting, superior assessment of churchgoers as "frightened masses."

Well I did give a Bible verse to back it up and I find the people to be frightened masses just as the old Israelites were in that Bible text. Others might disagree and so be it but I was impressed by Tonio's independent thinking since facing God independently against orthodoxy takes courage and that is easy to see.

Excellent point. Certaintly churchgoers can debate or question some aspects of their churches' doctrines, or the teachings handed down by denomination leaders. But if they don't agree with the core teachings, they might be better served by finding churches that fit their own beliefs.

Finding a church that fits my individual beliefs is impossible so I take what is available.

The very teaching that we each are to have a "personal relationship with God" means personal as in one to one and one to God, but the minute some one declares they are in a denomination then that means a group relationship with God. Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Baptist, Morman, etc., are all group relationships with God with the church telling the people what to believe. Having a personal relationship must mean having beliefs and feelings and lifestyle that is one on one with God.

That is if one believes in having a personal relationship with God or just saying the words while meaning to have a group relationship with it. So I go to Churches as a guest and as an individual but not as a member.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Well I did give a Bible verse to back it up and I find the people to be frightened masses just as the old Israelites were in that Bible text. Others might disagree and so be it but I was impressed by Tonio's independent thinking since facing God independently against orthodoxy takes courage and that is easy to see.

Finding a church that fits my individual beliefs is impossible so I take what is available.

The very teaching that we each are to have a "personal relationship with God" means personal as in one to one and one to God, but the minute some one declares they are in a denomination then that means a group relationship with God. Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Baptist, Morman, etc., are all group relationships with God with the church telling the people what to believe. Having a personal relationship must mean having beliefs and feelings and lifestyle that is one on one with God.

That is if one believes in having a personal relationship with God or just saying the words while meaning to have a group relationship with it. So I go to Churches as a guest and as an individual but not as a member.

This shows your lack of understanding once again.

There never has and never will be "group relationship" with God whether is is congregation or family or some commune. Every relationship with God is One on one.

My wife isn't saved because I am. She is saved because of her relationship with God.

I am not saved because my grandmother was. I am saved because of my relationship with God.

You are not saved no matter how many churches you visit. Your lack of understanding makes me wonder about your relationship or lack of with God, but I am not the judge of that. It is just that what you post shows marked lack of Spiritual wisdom.

The lifestyle, as you put it, is dictated in the Bible. But you have said you don't really believe the Bible, so again, I ask, why go to church?

 

[JPC, Sr.]

Faith Without Works is Dead.

This shows your lack of understanding once again.

There never has and never will be "group relationship" with God whether is is congregation or family or some commune. Every relationship with God is One on one.

When any one says they belong to any church then the have joined a group relationship to God. Simple as that. Some few members will stay independent and God bless them but the majority is in a group relationship, plain and simple.

My wife isn't saved because I am. She is saved because of her relationship with God.

I am not saved because my grandmother was. I am saved because of my relationship with God.

You are not saved no matter how many churches you visit. ...

Being saved or not is a totally different subject then relationships. So I am still correct.

The lifestyle, as you put it, is dictated in the Bible.

Some people try to say that but in the cases of churches then the church does tell the members what to do. The church can say it comes from the Bible and some times it does but the member is doing as told and not as their personal relationship says to do. Thus I am correct again.

But you have said you don't really believe the Bible, so again, I ask, why go to church?

I never said that I do not believe in the Bible but that I have my own personal interpretation of the scriptures. A big difference indeed. Orthodoxy means that the members believe the Bible in the interpretation that the church tells then to believe. So again a big difference.

 

[2ndAmendment]

When any one says they belong to any church then the have joined a group relationship to God. Simple as that.

No it does not. There is no such thing as a group relationship to God. That is a figment of your imagination and an excuse for you to pay no attention to those in authority spiritually just as you choose to pay no attention to those in authority in the secular world.

Some few members will stay independent and God bless them but the majority is in a group relationship, plain and simple.

No it is not. Everyone that has a relationship with God has an independent relationship with God. Your perception is not true.

Being saved or not is a totally different subject then relationships. So I am still correct.

Again, you are wrong. You cannot be saved unless you have a relationship with God according to His standards not yours.

Some people try to say that but in the cases of churches then the church does tell the members what to do. The church can say it comes from the Bible and some times it does but the member is doing as told and not as their personal relationship says to do. Thus I am correct again.

Again, you are wrong. The scripture plainly states to subject yourself to those in authority. You choose not to do that in secular and spiritual life. You are a rebellious person refusing to subject yourself to any authority.

I never said that I do not believe in the Bible but that I have my own personal interpretation of the scriptures. A big difference indeed.

Liar. You posted this:

We have Bible scholars and scholarly criticism which disects the scripture to dig the truth out. Many people find it difficult to face the reality that parts of the Bible is wrong and parts are fake, but I do not, and scholars from the Jesus Seminar try to get the truth out of the scriptures and it is very interesting indeed.

If you think that parts of the Bible are wrong and parts are made up, you do not believe the Bible. You believe in the Bible according to JPC, Sr.'s interpretation which is heresy and blasphemy.

Orthodoxy means that the members believe the Bible in the interpretation that the church tells then to believe. So again a big difference.

Not true, but your altered state of reality won't let you understand that. This goes along with your refusal to pay child support. You rebel against authority. You are wrong. You are supposed to submit to those in authority.

1 Peter 2: 13-14

13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

I have seen what you post here and I have met you in person. You have been told here and in person by more than one that you are wrong. This has been done in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17. You refuse to see that you are wrong, therefore I have determined that you are not a person I want anything to do with. You live in an altered state of reality and your cognizance of the world around you and the meaning of things around you are totally different spiritually and physically in reality than you perceive them. You are in great need of spiritual and profession mental health help.

God bless you as He sees fit. I choose to have nothing further to do with you. I turn my back, shake the dust from my feet, and walk away.

Luke 9:5 "And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."