Special needs and mainstreaming

[vraiblonde]

What it does do is turns almost all of the attention to the child with the needs, leaving the others with less of an experience than they would have had in a class with kids of all the same basic skill level.

That's not necessarily true.

If the kid is not mentally or physically functional at all, he doesn't belong in the class and it sounds like the parents are using it for cheap babysitting. But if he is capable of learning to some degree and can do the basics that are required for the class - just takes some extra time, patience and encouragement - then he should be allowed to participate.

I give you Special Olympics as an example of kids who are disabled in some fashion, yet are fully capable of playing a sport.

There are many levels of "special needs", from mild autism to complete vegetative state. I can't give an opinion without a specific example, because it really depends on the child's level of functionality.

 

[vraiblonde]

You know, there's a wheelchair basketball association and these guys could whip my two-fully-functioning-legged ass easy. You should see the video of them - it's really something.

 

[bcp]

You know, there's a wheelchair basketball association and these guys could whip my two-fully-functioning-legged ass easy. You should see the video of them - it's really something.

Ive seen it, and they could whoop my semi functioning legged ass too.

see you in the bleachers.. Ill bring beer.

 

[bcp]

and Vrai, thinking on that wheel chair basketball thing.
picture in your mind if you will, one wheelchair basketball player on the floor with non wheelchair bound players.
Just in your wildest imagination, could you see any chance of something not good maybe happening?

 

[Bann]

The question is this.
If you were to spend money to put your child in a tennis, or dance etc... class, and when you got there you discovered that the class had a special education student ex.. autistic, mentally challenged, whatever, would you be upset?
If that child is going to need more attention, and more time to learn, its going to detract from what your child gets as far as instruction.
Since you paid good money for the class, do you expect that those in the class be able to keep up with the course all the way through, or is it perfectly ok for your child to have less of a learning experience while the teacher and shadows deal with the child in question.

same for school, is it fair to the other children to be slowed down by the challenged child.

no need to get nasty, Im just curious.

Full disclosure here: I have a child with special needs.

I pay a business for my son to receive instruction in a particular activity with other kids. If I pay good money for my son to get lessons in a particular activity, and he doesn't get something on the first try - is it fair to say, too bad, so sad - you're not worthy of some extra attention? Especially if the goal is to teach the child how to do that particular activity? I actually did make a switch recently when I felt my son was being left behind due to his lack of ability. I didn't make waves, I didn't cause trouble about it, I just felt that he was not getting the same attention for his level of ability that other kids got for their level. Kind of the opposite of the scenario you describe.

I think, ultimately, it's up to the business proprietor to decide if a kid with different abilities will be a good fit with that particular place of business & clientele. In the past, I have always taken the time to interview the proprietors ahead of time in order to let them know what I am looking for (when I pay for my son to receive instruction) and have always been able to reach mutually agreed upon "goals & expectations" on both sides before I sign up and pay for anything. In the case recently, it had been a few years and I had been patient, but I think there were some missed opportunities with my son - and so I searched around and found a better fit. He has a different level of ability. He is not without ability. And there are many ways to tap into that ability in kids. It probably depends on the instructor's ability to do that.

If you're referring to Parks & Recs programs, then they have to follow the regulations of that pesky thing called "The Americans with Disabilities Act" and they can't discriminate against someone with a handicap. But for other places of business - then it's just up to what the market will bear. People will vote with their pocketbooks, and they're certainly entitled to do so. I do.

If there were ever any bad feelings on the part of any parents of other kids -because of my son's lack of abilities and his taking up extra attention from an instructor, thereby "cheating" other kids out of their enrichment & instruction - I've never known of it.

Mind you, it goes without saying that my son is not disruptive - certainly not any more (or less!) than any other regular abled kid. Kids will be kids, afterall.

And again, I would have to say that my son's abilities may be different, but think about what all the other kids can learn from him? They can learn a lot from him - maybe more than he learns from them, in some ways.

And he doesn't take up much more space or air then any other kid!

As far as school goes - that's another story entirely. I've posted on that around here before. But all kids are entitled to an education. Disabled kids are entitled to a "free and appropriate education".(FAPE) And while they have what is known as an "Individual Education Plan" (IEP) - it's not Burger King and you cannot have everything your way. Mainstreaming is not for every disabled child. I have a huge problem with people who throw around the IDEA and ADA laws in order to have things exactly the way THEY feel it should be for little Johnny or Susie. In fact, I had to fight AGAINST mainstreaming for my child when we first moved to FL. He simply could not learn in a classroom of 20 kids. Even with an assistant. It was a horror. And he was disruptive back then - he was much younger, of course. After 2 days of his being in that class, the principal called me for a meeting. I had to tell her "I told you so" - it was not a good fit for anyone in that class for my son to be in it. So we altered his placement.

Anyway - long answer, but it's never really a cut & dry answer. There are so many variables. But I hope I added something positive to your survey. I didn't vote in the poll, because I didn't really find a choice that fit.

 

[Bann]

ok, Ill come right out and say it.
Im not actually talking about behavior as the problem
Im talking about parents that have autistic children, and the one Im talking about is not what would be considered a "functional" autistic child. Ive even seen a parent demand that their kid in a wheel chair be involved in a tennis class, who the hell can push a wheelchair well enough to keep up with a game of tennis? Mom better be in some damn good shape for that one.
this is an issue that is of no fault of the parent or the child.
What it does do is turns almost all of the attention to the child with the needs, leaving the others with less of an experience than they would have had in a class with kids of all the same basic skill level.

and yes, I can make positive arguments for both sides of this, but I tend to lean more to the side of the kids that can excel.

Are these classes through Parks & Recs? They have courses for children with disabilities. I could understand the child in a wheel chair being accepted in the regular abled programs, if they could keep up - but otherwise - IMO - a parent of an autistic child (or any other type of disabled child) who is very low functioning has some issues if they're trying to make the world revolve around their child in a wheel chair or whatever. That's just ridiculous and they should get some counseling.

 

[jetmonkey]

The question is this.
If you were to spend money to put your child in a tennis, or dance etc... class, and when you got there you discovered that the class had a special education student ex.. autistic, mentally challenged, whatever, would you be upset?
If that child is going to need more attention, and more time to learn, its going to detract from what your child gets as far as instruction.
Since you paid good money for the class, do you expect that those in the class be able to keep up with the course all the way through, or is it perfectly ok for your child to have less of a learning experience while the teacher and shadows deal with the child in question.

same for school, is it fair to the other children to be slowed down by the challenged child.

no need to get nasty, I just have a poorly hidden agenda.

lulz

 

[bcp]

Are these classes through Parks & Recs? They have courses for children with disabilities. I could understand the child in a wheel chair being accepted in the regular abled programs, if they could keep up - but otherwise - IMO - a parent of an autistic child (or any other type of disabled child) who is very low functioning has some issues if they're trying to make the world revolve around their child in a wheel chair or whatever. That's just ridiculous and they should get some counseling.

yes, I dont actually have anything to do with them, but I do hear and get to read complaints from people.
thats why I asked, lots of people complain about this situation.

 

[Sadielady]

Providing that the children get the specialized teachers that they need, I agree.
I think two things happen when they are put in regular classrooms.
1) the rest of the class will be slowed down a bit to allow the slower learners to try to keep up.
2) the class still wont go as slow as needed for the special education kids, and they will still be left behind.

I think it fails on both sides.

Actually research proves the exact opposite. I will read the rest of the posts before I respond and take a deep breath so that I don't take this issue too personally.

 

[JollyRoger]

Thus the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND issue!

It sucks. Children who are ready to move on, just can't. They have to wait for the slower kids to catch up.

I wish they'd bring back Special education classes. That way everyone moves at their own pace.

just my 2 cents

Go read what it's really about...then form an opinion.

 

[Sadielady]

Dr. Ryndak’s research shows that when you place a child with even severe disabilities with the appropriate accommodations and modifications into a classroom with typically developing kids that everyone benefits. By the teachers focusing on the "Best Practices" by using multi modal ways of teaching, they reach the low kids in the class that may not have understood the materials given the general way of teaching. Research shows that the high kids will progress the same but the middle and low kids test scores increase. The benefit to the disabled child having access to the general education curriculum and speech and social role models help incredibly. You may not understand because you are lucky enough to have had a child without a disability. All children learn about the differences and hardships that others may face. They learn early on how lucky they are not to have a disability. Many children want to be a part of helping the child be a part of the classroom. The child with a disability is considered a member of the classroom not a visitor. Children often learn to hate or discriminate those with disabilities because they have never had the opportunity to truly get to be a friend to a person with a disability and some parents (possibly like yourself) say things in front of their typically developing children that makes them afraid or dislike someone that is not like themselves.
I know you added that you really meant sports you pay for, but your taxes pay for our schools too. If only you could walk a mile in that parents shoes you would understand. It is the lack of understanding and compassion that makes me feel sad. I didn't vote in your poll because nothing matched what I would have voted for. As far as disruptions, it would depend on the level of disruption. If a child is physically harming another student they should not be there until their behavior is understood and modified. Behavior can be changed.

 

[Sadielady]

Autism is a spectrum disorder. There are many children with autism that are amazingly bright. They tend to have poor social skills, communication, and repetitive behaviors. They would benefit a great deal by being involved in social situations with a trained shadow. More and more children are being diagnosed with autism everyday. We segregated races back in the 60's, how different is it to segregate disabilities? It sounds a lot like discrimination to me.

 

[vraiblonde]

It sounds a lot like discrimination to me.

I think you're going overboard.

If one of my kids was special needs, I'd prefer they had teachers and sports instructors who were trained to work with kids like that. I'm not sure I'd want them being taught by someone who didn't really know how to help them learn.

It's not wrong for kids with different learning abilities to be in classes - academic or sports - that are suited to their level. That's why the "normal" kids have regular classes, AP, gifted and such - so that each child might learn to the best of their abilities without being held back by kids who aren't on their level.

I think this is what BCP is getting at, but - again - it would depend on the kid's level of functionality whether I think they should be in the regular classes or not.

 

[Bann]

yes, I dont actually have anything to do with them, but I do hear and get to read complaints from people.
thats why I asked, lots of people complain about this situation.

I see. And on the one hand I can empathize with them, but on the other hand, any kid can be disruptive or slow to learn and get various activities. Doesn't have to be a handicapped child. And I wonder if those parents who think their kid isn't getting enough of "whatever" for whatever reason would really need a reason, ya know? Like someone else said - that's probably where private lessons would be useful.

 

[Busterduck]

ok, Ill come right out and say it.
Im not actually talking about behavior as the problem
Im talking about parents that have autistic children, and the one Im talking about is not what would be considered a "functional" autistic child. Ive even seen a parent demand that their kid in a wheel chair be involved in a tennis class, who the hell can push a wheelchair well enough to keep up with a game of tennis? Mom better be in some damn good shape for that one.
this is an issue that is of no fault of the parent or the child.
What it does do is turns almost all of the attention to the child with the needs, leaving the others with less of an experience than they would have had in a class with kids of all the same basic skill level.

and yes, I can make positive arguments for both sides of this, but I tend to lean more to the side of the kids that can excel.

Perhaps the more valuable lesson the other children can learn is compassion for others and especially for those who are disabled. I would consider such a situation a wonderful learning experience for my child. I want my child to learn empathy and compassion much more than I would want him to get one on one attention from his tennis instructor - - or whatever instructor - - fill in the blank.

 

[BS Gal]

Does anyone remember the issues with Julie Randall's child?

 

[bcp]

Perhaps the more valuable lesson the other children can learn is compassion for others and especially for those who are disabled. I would consider such a situation a wonderful learning experience for my child. I want my child to learn empathy and compassion much more than I would want him to get one on one attention from his tennis instructor - - or whatever instructor - - fill in the blank.

there is a substantial amount of value in what you said. and, I have spoken to a number of parents that feel the same way.
however, the ones that cause me to question this are saying that regardless of those issues, they paid for a class that was supposed to be at "x" level, but because of special or additional attention to the one student, that level was not delivered to their children.

My opinion? tennis or whatever, Who GAF? seriously,
as far as education in school, I have not had to face that situation in my daughters case, she is in all advanced courses.

 

[bcp]

Does anyone remember the issues with Julie Randall's child?

who is julie randall?

 

[Bann]

Does anyone remember the issues with Julie Randall's child?

I don't know who Julie Randall is. She may be before my time.

 

[Bann]

there is a substantial amount of value in what you said. and, I have spoken to a number of parents that feel the same way.
however, the ones that cause me to question this are saying that regardless of those issues, they paid for a class that was supposed to be at "x" level, but because of special or additional attention to the one student, that level was not delivered to their children.

I think those parents in question have an issue with the owner of the business, not the parents or child with special needs. They need to address their financial transaction (paying for those lessons/classes) with the owner.


They have options. They can go someplace else where the owner shares the same philosophy as they do. Or they can pay an instructor for private lessons, etc.

As for Parks & Recs - I think the instructors are independent contractors (although I'm not sure how they are paid, what the scale is, etc.) I found this in the Calvert Co. activity flyer:

"It is the policy of Calvert County that no qualified individual with a disability be excluded from participating in or be denied the benefits of the services, programs or activities provided or made available, or to otherwise be subjected to discrimination by Calvert County."​

With P & R - the disabled person does have to meet qualifications to be enrolled in the class. So, if they meet those qualifications, they're enrolled in the class. If other people have a different philosophy than this - then they should think twice about signing up their children @ those places of business.​

[I actually do have more thoughts on this, but I am trying to keep my personal feelings for this kind of thing out of it. Ultimately, this boils down to a financial transaction. The parents paying for the lessons do have a right to expect a certain level of instruction. But ALL the parents are paying, so they all have a right to a certain level of instruction. The definition of that level is between the parents who pay and the instructor who gets paid. But I think the parents who are complaining should be doing so to the instructor/owner]