Still think automated enforcement isnt about money

[glhs837]

For every 'study' you post, there are 2 that say the opposite.



Seriously?!?!?!?!? Do you freaking read the NEWS?!?!?!?!?

There are? Really? Where might I find those? And I do read the papers. I have already expressed how I feel about Mrs Morgans injuries. I am not aware of any other serious injury crashes due to red light running. Do you have information I do not? Or are you saying that one crash justifies installing these things?

 

[TPD]

Seriously?!?!?!?!? Do you freaking read the NEWS?!?!?!?!?

Just because the news said the crash victim(s) are flown away in a helo doesn't necessarily mean they have serious injuries. Unfortunately we have become a community that errs way too far on the cautious side in order to TRY to avoid lawsuits. It is a sad society we have become.....

 

[TPD]

I hope everyone had a chance to see the letter to the editor in Friday's Enterprise by Roland Baringer concerning this issue. Very well written!

 

[royhobie]

Your brother shouldn't have been in the intersection unless he was able to clear it. What type of a-hole goes into the intersection when there is traffic in front of them. That's one of the most inconsiderate things a driver could do. No regard to the cross traffic. He's so important that he will block those that are not blocked by traffic. He's a douche and deserved the ticket.

Douche? I don't plan on attacking people as you apparently like to do. You're an interesting person. I've learned long time ago that it is useless explaining something to someone who doesn't want to listen or understand.

 

[royhobie]

There are? Really? Where might I find those? And I do read the papers. I have already expressed how I feel about Mrs Morgans injuries. I am not aware of any other serious injury crashes due to red light running. Do you have information I do not? Or are you saying that one crash justifies installing these things?

Actually, GLHS837 is correct. A simple Google search provides convincing evidence that the cameras are not the answer and that there is a multi million dollar gain for Maryland within two years due to red light cameras. Many police officers I spoke to have said their opinion is that it's only purpose is for money. Not one I spoke to so far said safety is the issue.

 

[Localboy]

Actually, GLHS837 is correct. A simple Google search provides convincing evidence that the cameras are not the answer and that there is a multi million dollar gain for Maryland within two years due to red light cameras. Many police officers I spoke to have said their opinion is that it's only purpose is for money. Not one I spoke to so far said safety is the issue.

I can't wait for red light cameras. St Mary's County is way behind times on this one. I think they will help with traffic safety. The camera locations are always made public and the roadways are always posted with signs. That alone will hopefully have people driving he speed limit and being prepared to stop if the light turns red. If you decide to race the yellow or are not paying attention and go through the red light you deserve a ticket. If the State and the camera companies make money in the process so be it. They will be making money off the backs of people who broke the law and could of caused a serious accident.
You just can't look at the number of accidents that occurred from people that run red lights. There are people that run red lights and are lucky enough not to get in an accident. However, just because an accident didn't occur and there wasn't a police officer at the intersection doesn't mean the violater should get off. They broke the law and they should be ticketed
As for Royhobie you make me laugh. You love to talk about all the VOLUNTEER advisory boards you are on and meetings you attend. If your opinion was that important you would be paid for it. You must have nothing to do as you had enough free time to ride around and time all the lights. Then you get upset when no one at the meetings want to read or hear your information. (Didn't you also do a cross walk study at St Mary's College) You claim that you were a police officer. I would love to know where you where the police and how long you were on the job. I would like to research that fact myself.

 

[royhobie]

That's nice. So you admit it's about revenue, not about safety? Will you mention that in your meetings with the BOCC and the Sheriff?

Oh yes. I'm looking forward to the meeting. The Sheriff's Office meeting is this Wednesday. The evidence is overwhelming that the red light cameras are about money. It's a shame that not everyone can understand this fact.

 

[glhs837]

Open meeting?

 

[royhobie]

No idiot. Why would a cop issue a ticket if they see a car go through a light with a camera. If that did happen, the driver would be smart to pay the non-point ticket, then going to the states attorney's office with that ticket and get the case dismissed. No court, and saves us overtime for a police officer to have to appear in court!

I'm glad to see you're still my biggest fan. As for your comment, the officer that reviews the red light camera tickets can select to dismiss the red light camera ticket in place of the more serious ticket which involves points that is issued by an officer. However, if you ever think I'm wrong, as you probably do, please try it your way. When you do, let me know who was right.

 

[Tilted]

Why does it have to be either/or and not a combination of both? If the violation takes place what difference does it make whether it's enforced by a camera or a police officer? Just curious.

Well, for starters, I woud hope that an officer would issue a ticket to someone that they observed running a red light (i.e. for whom they had specific evidence that they had), as opposed to issuing a ticket to someone that they just think might have (i.e. for whom they don't have any specific evidence that they had) and then have the system (e.g. the law as written and the courts) pretend it's that person's duty to prove that they didn't or be sanctioned - sanctioned because, you know, they might have violated the law, even though we (i.e. the state) aren't even attempting to demonstrate that they did.

Why do proponents of these policies insist on ignoring this rather obvious reality? These policies put the onus of demonstrating innocence on the accused, rather than the burden of demonstrating guilt on the state. Doesn't that trouble people on principle even if they don't fear that they'll be among the victims? Then there's the issue of not being able to confront the witness against you, as you can do with an officer. If an officer wants to falsely accuse you of running a red light (and follow through on that accusation), they at least have to be willing to perjure themselves to do it.

I don't see how anyone that has respect for traditional American concepts of due process of law could support these systems / policies as they are currently devised. It is especially troubling to think that people with enforcement power (e.g. a Sheriff or State's Attorney), let alone such people that are educated enough that they should understand the issues, would support them. If they care so little about due process, about the concept of innocent until proven guilty, and about making sure that they have the right person before using the power of the state to try to sanction someone, and further are willing to display that lack of concern (perhaps even contempt) openly, as with support for these policies, then how can they be trusted with regard to potential manifestations of that lack of concern which wouldn't be out in the open, nay which they'd have good reason to make sure were hidden from view?

 

[Pride4369]

Same Nonsense !! Don't Feed Into it !

I would first like to say that I respect the comments of others on here. However when I start to see nonsense and propaganda from BigBrotherMD and EastOverAuto posted on here I start to wonder if anyone is really doing their research or just quoting the next guy. Which I believe you are sir !! If you knew half about what you were reading and copy pasting you would also know that Fatal Accidents which can take up to 500 police man hours have dropped by over 50% in every spot that these cameras are at. Now with that being said you tell me that people were not speeding !!!! These cameras free up law enforcement (ST MARY'S COUNTY HAS ABOUT 6 DEPUTIES ON THE ROAD AT TIMES BECAUSE THEY LOSE SO MANY PEOPLE AND MINIMUM MANPOWER IS 8 DEPUTIES!! MIND YOU THIS IS FOR A COUNTY THAT IS 341 SQ MILES, AND OH YEAH 2- 3 TROOPERS). So putting these cameras in places where deputies can not be, can not enforce because of officer safety, and has a high volume of speeding will not only help citizens, but decrease the amount of speed related accidents which resulted in over 1,000 accident reports written by the St Mary's Sheriffs office. Do the math for Fire response and police response. Average Scene to include report takes about 2 hours. So that is about 2,000 hours for police and 2,000 hours for fire rescue. So A Deputy gets paid on average $30.00 an hour (give or take a few for time on the agency) so that equals $60,000.00 (thats not including gas, wear and tear, and the fact they have to risk their life running priority to a accident) SO IF YOU DON'T SPEED YOU WON'T GET A TICKET !!! OH YEAH AND NEWS FLASH !!!! THE POLICE WRITE MORE TICKETS AND THE STATE GET THE M0NEY THEN IT GOES TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL GETTING THE MONEY ANY WAY !! ITS ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY OR TICKETS WOULD JUST BE POINTS ON YOUR LICENSE !!

HERE IS A CLUE !! DON'T SPEED AND IT WON'T BE A $77 MILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY !!

 

[glhs837]

Hmm, lots of numbers in your post there.

1. Fatal Accidents which can take up to 500 police man hours have dropped by over 50% in every spot that these cameras are at.

So, fatal accidents have dropped every place these cameras (red light or speeding?) get placed? Where does that stat come from?


2. Now with that being said you tell me that people were not speeding !!!!

Not a number, but I have to dispute this. I never said everyone the cameras cite were not speeding, just that the cameras can and do make errors in assigning a speed to a vehicle. And they do. If the information the SBBMD has posted, the pictures of the citations and the timestamps, then this is correct. If you have conflicting information, feel free to post it.

3. The amount of speed related accidents which resulted in over 1,000 accident reports written by the St Mary's Sheriffs office.

1,000 speed related accidents? Really? Are you aware that the NHTSA itself has concluded that speed is really only a factor in about %3 of accidents? That officers toss speed in almost all the time, but in reality, it's not a factor.

For a first post, you came out swinging. So, who are you. Me, I'm a regular guy, there's about 4-5 folks on here who can vouch for me. Are you the local rep for one of the vendors? Or maybe an officer? Seems odd how vehement you are.

 

[Pride4369]

I am not a rep for a vendor, but only someone who like people to do their research and not accept the word from others.
1) Freedom of Information Act... Over 1,000 Accidents (Speed is always a factor)
2)I was a Vehicular Accident Reconstructionist in my 25 years on the job
3)True Stat: 3% of over 5,000,000 vehicle accidents in the United States A year is a staggering number.
4) An Accident where a driver is traveling 10-15 MPH over the posted speed limit is more likely to result in a personal injury accident, and in a pedestrian accident a fatal accident.
5) Each agency keeps a record which is reported (for state Highways) yearly of the stats of speeding decrease, personal injury, and property damage. There is a mandated study performed to show that the cameras are working.
6) I have recieved these tickets myself. The cameras work !!
7) I have looked at that mumbo jumbo math you are talking about and let me tell you what .....that time stamp is a bunch on nonsense. There is no fixed reference point and read the law !!! I have.... The photos are NOT used to determine speed.
8) I am not saying these things are perfect... they are man made so there is always room for error.
9) I hope they make the money and protect the public so the Sheriffs Department can hire more deputies to do the job. They are overworked undermanned and underpaid !!

 

[Pride4369]

I also want to make it very clear I live in St Mary's County and have for a very long time!!

 

[glhs837]

1. Speed is always listed as a factor, but as I said, the NHTSA says differently.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811059.PDF (note, thats the NHTSA website)

Cliff notes, "speed too fast for conditions" is good for about %5 of the crashes. And selling the speed is always a factor just perpetuates the myth that speed alone is the number one cause. You could lists people getting out of bed, becuase everyone does that too, but we all know that it realy has nothing to do with it.

People pull out in front of traffic, the driver with the right of way being 6-8mph over has very little to do with it.

Other things like failing to stay in lane, falling asleep at the wheel, driver distraction, those cause far more accidents than speed.

Around here, people pulling in front of other people is much more of a factor than speed. And yes, the officers are overworked and underpaid, but this wont fix that.

 

[Pride4369]

You say 6-8 mph does not make a difference ?? That's great we are talking about 12 or more over the speed limit... Let me break it down!
Veh 1 is traveling at 35 MPH which is 51.31 feet per second
Average reaction time in great conditions is 1.5 seconds
So a vehicle traveling 35mph travels 76.96 feet in that reaction time or (point of perception)
5 MpH is negligible so no point in figuring that in.
So 76.96 is just the reaction distance from perception to breaking.
So let's just say its sunny the coefficient of friction is .78 and we have 100% breaking
This vehicle could easily travel 200 feet befor final rest
Do the same at 47mph= 68.90 feet per second
1.5 second from point of perception = 103.35 feet
That same vehicle with Same conditions travels 200 ft more = 400 ft (give or take)

So 12 MPH makes all the difference if that car that pulled out or child in a school zone that steps out in front of a vehicke is 215 ft from point of perception to breaking. Simply because at 35MpH the collision would have never happened, but at 12 MPH (47MPH)over the collision happens and injury is likely! And at 47 a pedestrian accident usually is fatal especially a child because of where the bumbler strikes the child compared to that of an adult!

So the cameras issue at 12 mph and over !! Not 5-8 that is why !!!

That reaction time is in perfect conditions as well.... We are not talking about a cellphone user or txtning teenager !!!

 

[foodcritic]

I would first like to say that I respect the comments of others on here. However when I start to see nonsense and propaganda from BigBrotherMD and EastOverAuto posted on here I start to wonder if anyone is really doing their research or just quoting the next guy. Which I believe you are sir !! If you knew half about what you were reading and copy pasting you would also know that Fatal Accidents which can take up to 500 police man hours have dropped by over 50% in every spot that these cameras are at. Now with that being said you tell me that people were not speeding !!!! These cameras free up law enforcement (ST MARY'S COUNTY HAS ABOUT 6 DEPUTIES ON THE ROAD AT TIMES BECAUSE THEY LOSE SO MANY PEOPLE AND MINIMUM MANPOWER IS 8 DEPUTIES!! MIND YOU THIS IS FOR A COUNTY THAT IS 341 SQ MILES, AND OH YEAH 2- 3 TROOPERS). So putting these cameras in places where deputies can not be, can not enforce because of officer safety, and has a high volume of speeding will not only help citizens, but decrease the amount of speed related accidents which resulted in over 1,000 accident reports written by the St Mary's Sheriffs office. Do the math for Fire response and police response. Average Scene to include report takes about 2 hours. So that is about 2,000 hours for police and 2,000 hours for fire rescue. So A Deputy gets paid on average $30.00 an hour (give or take a few for time on the agency) so that equals $60,000.00 (thats not including gas, wear and tear, and the fact they have to risk their life running priority to a accident) SO IF YOU DON'T SPEED YOU WON'T GET A TICKET !!! OH YEAH AND NEWS FLASH !!!! THE POLICE WRITE MORE TICKETS AND THE STATE GET THE M0NEY THEN IT GOES TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL GETTING THE MONEY ANY WAY !! ITS ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY OR TICKETS WOULD JUST BE POINTS ON YOUR LICENSE !!

HERE IS A CLUE !! DON'T SPEED AND IT WON'T BE A $77 MILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY !!

Can u make that a new thread of discussion?

 

[Pride4369]

Addendum

Go ahead if that's one thing you want to talk about !!! If you listen to the scanner you can see just how many units are on the road. It is crazy to see how these deputies are run into the ground every shift. I really feel for them !! Talk about John Wayne Law Enforcement !! Much credit to them for putting on the uniform and risking their life with no back up !!

 

[glhs837]

You say 6-8 mph does not make a difference ?? That's great we are talking about 12 or more over the speed limit... Let me break it down!
Veh 1 is traveling at 35 MPH which is 51.31 feet per second
Average reaction time in great conditions is 1.5 seconds
So a vehicle traveling 35mph travels 76.96 feet in that reaction time or (point of perception)
5 MpH is negligible so no point in figuring that in.
So 76.96 is just the reaction distance from perception to breaking.
So let's just say its sunny the coefficient of friction is .78 and we have 100% breaking
This vehicle could easily travel 200 feet befor final rest
Do the same at 47mph= 68.90 feet per second
1.5 second from point of perception = 103.35 feet
That same vehicle with Same conditions travels 200 ft more = 400 ft (give or take)

So 12 MPH makes all the difference if that car that pulled out or child in a school zone that steps out in front of a vehicke is 215 ft from point of perception to breaking. Simply because at 35MpH the collision would have never happened, but at 12 MPH (47MPH)over the collision happens and injury is likely! And at 47 a pedestrian accident usually is fatal especially a child because of where the bumbler strikes the child compared to that of an adult!

So the cameras issue at 12 mph and over !! Not 5-8 that is why !!!

That reaction time is in perfect conditions as well.... We are not talking about a cellphone user or txtning teenager !!!

Your numbers and assumptions are of course accurate. Now, here's the thing. How many accidents have we had in existing schools zones where this has worked out to be the case? This speaks to the "Why are we fixing a problem we dont have?"question. Are you aware of any accidents we have had in a school zone here in the county where speed like 12mph over was a factor? There have been a couple of pedestrian accidents this last year that have been fatal accidents, true, and both of those were within 1/2 mile of a school. But in both cases, it was night time, and the victim was in the roadway, and speed was not listed as a factor.

So, if the purpose is to keep pedestrians/other drivers safe in a school zone, doesnt that beg the question of whether we have a problem of crashes in school zones caused by speed?

 

[Pride4369]

The deterrent is that of "Where is the camera?" So a driver would think wow I am within 1/2 mile of a school so I better not be speeding.
There have been several Fatal Accidents 235/5 and just recently at about 5 in the evening by great mills high school there have been at least two accidents that resulted in Personal Injury, and last year a serious motorcycle accident on great mills rd that actually happened right in front of the school. They worked on him in the parking lot of the school as well. The pictures were on the baynet.
However I say should we wait for a child to get hit crossing the street and getting killed to justify a speed system near schools. Or take the proactive stance before a Mother and Father lose a child ?

We both know that if you drive down Great mills rd that rarely is someone doing the speed limit. I have been passed and given dirty looks as if I was doing something wrong for doing the posted. Another great thing in my opinion is that with doing this our over worked deputies can focus on other areas that have had problems with speed. So it only complements the capabilities of the Sheriffs Department.

When it comes to the safety of my family I am not willing to wait until someone gets killed or seriously hurt to take action. I guess what I am saying is its to late to put the seat belt on after the accident.