Still think automated enforcement isnt about money

[glhs837]

But how many of those accidents were caused by folks exceeding the limit by 12mph? Lets not descend to the "OMG, its for the children, please wont you think of the children!!!". Do we have a problem with school kids being endangered by folks speeding at 12 mph over or not? My kids attend GMHS, and I dont see the problem. The folks who got hit out there as pedestrians had other issues, and the cars speed wasnt it.

Now, about the cameras, yousaid the pictures were not supposed to be used as evidence. Why does Optptraffic list that as a use in the manual for the system?

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...zNGQtOTZlYmYzM2JiYTM4&hl=en&authkey=CM_r6okB

Page 2, last para, second sentence. "since a still object is present along with the vehicle, a photographic method also determines speed". Now, that indicates to me that the photos were intended to be used for speed measurement. Also, on page 4, it says "two photographs provide the secondary evidence of speeding".

Now, if all the picture does is prove the car was present, why are there two of them? And why was there a three decimal place time stamp on each one?

 

[foodcritic]

But how many of those accidents were caused by folks exceeding the limit by 12mph? Lets not descend to the "OMG, its for the children, please wont you think of the children!!!". Do we have a problem with school kids being endangered by folks speeding at 12 mph over or not? My kids attend GMHS, and I dont see the problem. The folks who got hit out there as pedestrians had other issues, and the cars speed wasnt it.

That is your first problem......

 

[glhs837]

At least make an attempt to put together a coherent argument. Really. Please explain the problem I am not seeing. Show me the accidents caused by excessive speed in existing school zones.

 

[Pride4369]

I see you are going to be one of the NIMBY's as we call it on the hill ! (Not in my back yard). I gave you three great examples of wrecks where speed was a factor ! You do not seem to realize that 9/10 crashes speed is a contributing cause (Wether the person was cited or not) and if you want to be really technical !! Speed is ALWAYS a factor because a vehicle has to be in motion to cause a wreck !!

12MPH or more unfortunately on the streets in Maryland is the norm. I am sure a speed study will be done before a cam goes up and then you can have all that info the same way I will get it FOIA. If I were a betting man I would say that the 85 percentile on Greatmills rd is 54Mph. and average speed is 52 MPH. So once again IF A WRECK HAPPENED SPEED WOULD BE A FACTOR AND IF IT DID HAPPEN SPEED WAS A FACTOR!!
I think you live in this bubble that speed does not play a role and these cars just "poof" themselves into a wreck. It is usually two things FAIL TO PAY FULL TIME AND ATTENTION AND SPEED. That my friend is 25 years of experience 15 doing fatal wrecks!!

 

[glhs837]

Not a NIMBY at all, if I really thought there was a benefit, I would support these things. Of course speed was a factor, so was getting up in the morning. Lets be civil about this. Have you seen the specific reports for those crashes? I know ther reporting didnt mention speed as a factor.

Now, lets talk about factors, and what that means. As I noted, every single person in those crashes got up that am, but that factor is not a contributing factor. So, the speeds involved, while a factor, might not have been a contributing factor. Lets take them as specific cases.

The first one was back in October.....

Pedestrian Killed on Great Mills Road - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News

Speed and alcohol on the part of Billings do not appear to be contributing factors.

SoMdNews.com: Pedestrian struck, killed on Great Mills Road

Ford was under the influence of alcohol, the sheriff’s office reports from the preliminary investigation, and his being in the travel portion of the highway and wearing dark clothes also were contributing factors in the accident. Neither the speed of Billings’ car nor her condition at that time were factors in the accident.

“He was in the roadway where he shouldn’t have been,” a sheriff’s deputy said. “There was no driver error.”

So, if you can surface coverage of the others in question, we can talk about those cases. I also take exception to your thoughts on average speeds on GMR and the roadways in general. 12mph over is not the norm, more in the area of 5-8 would be my guess. Try travelling that fast, see where you fall in regards to traffic.

 

[DEEKAYPEE8569]

I know Maryland can't resist any way to tax us. But, this is crazy!QUOTE]

.....and Maryland remains one of the highest taxed states in the U.S.; with a laundry list of taxes and fees. Wonder what the next tax or fee is gonna be.

 

[glhs837]

And lets address this point. If people paid full time and attention, then the speed would matter a whole lot less. Where do you think we will make more money, in the sense of reducing crashes (I hate the term accident, that's for unpreventable things like earthquakes and meteor strike), by reducing speed or by getting folks to pay more time and attention? Or, lets get crazy, teach folks how to drive in an emergency situation, instead of locking the brakes up and riding it in?

Solve the problem we really have, that we expect virtually nothing of drivers except that they keep it between the lines and not hit stuff. And we train them so poorly, and expect so little of them that they cannot even handle that.

 

[Pride4369]

And lets address this point. If people paid full time and attention, then the speed would matter a whole lot less. Where do you think we will make more money, in the sense of reducing crashes (I hate the term accident, that's for unpreventable things like earthquakes and meteor strike), by reducing speed or by getting folks to pay more time and attention? Or, lets get crazy, teach folks how to drive in an emergency situation, instead of locking the brakes up and riding it in?

Solve the problem we really have, that we expect virtually nothing of drivers except that they keep it between the lines and not hit stuff. And we train them so poorly, and expect so little of them that they cannot even handle that.

You are right if people did pay full time and attention, didnt listen to the stereo obeyed traffic laws, took driving a car seriously, did not lean back like their driverseat was a lounge, talk on a cell phone,txt etc we would live in driving utopia !! Then we would not need police or these cameras. But we have police and systems like this because people do what they want they look at laws a guidelines not a direct rule to follow. That is why we have no cellphone use while driving, but people still hold it in there hand on speaker phone which is illegal. So we could spend Billions of dollars on training people to drive in emergency situations or they could start by reducing the risk on their own, but that won't happen. That is what keeps cops employed, the judicial system active etc.

I wish there was a way an officer did not have to risk their life giving a traffic ticket to someone becuase they broke a motor vehicle law. That and domestics kill more cops every year (That and vehicle wrecks).

I see where you are coming from but I have to say it would be in a perfect world for the most part

 

[glhs837]

Agreed, folks will drive the way they drive. Have we had any officer injured here in the county while giving a ticket? This goes back to the "Are we solving a problem we dont have?".

 

[vince77]

Speed and red light cameras make us safer. I wish they would put them at every traffic light and every half mile on our highways.

 

[bcp]

Speed and red light cameras make us safer. I wish they would put them at every traffic light and every half mile on our highways.

I agree with you on that one.
There is no need to speed, there is only the need to leave earlier.

 

[glhs837]

Speed and red light cameras make us safer. I wish they would put them at every traffic light and every half mile on our highways.

And you base that opinion on what information?

 

[Pushrod]

And you base that opinion on what information?

I'm torn on this issue. I definetly see a need for better enforcement of both extreme speeders and red light runners in this area. I would be for the camera's if they came with certain conditions, e.g. Light timing would not change to maliciously catch people running red lights who were not trying to run the lights, and a continuation of the concept of "innocent before PROVEN guilty in a court of law". Which would mean that you could contest the camera's and a judge would have to decide your guilt or innocence.

I'm sure there should be some other requirements also.

 

[glhs837]

PR, there are a couple of other factors to consider. One, as you noted, is the review process. It's quite for the review process to be a rubber stamp. In fact, Baltimore, a police officer "signed" 2,000 plus citations as reviewed after he died.

Another is are you okay with an increase in rear end collisions in return for ticketing the red light runners?

 

[glhs837]

12MPH or more unfortunately on the streets in Maryland is the norm. I am sure a speed study will be done before a cam goes up and then you can have all that info the same way I will get it FOIA. If I were a betting man I would say that the 85 percentile on Greatmills rd is 54Mph. and average speed is 52 MPH.

Not sure about this, and if it is, not sure about the impartiality of whomever is doing the survey. But that would have to be asked when they decide to do one.

What would you bet? In the last day and a half, I have rerouted my commute down that road, from near Shangri-La to Rt five, travelled it six or seven times. 7am, lunchtime, 2pm, and around the 6-7pm timeframe. Two speed sections, a 40mph from around Compass systems to Rt 5 and its 35 from there back to 235 at Gate 2.

Travelling with the pack, so to speak,. Looks that the majority of folks are in the 5-7mph over range, 45-47 in the 40 and 40-42 in the 35. A few faster, fewer slower, but most folks are in the 5-7 over range. I'll do a few more days to get a better feel for it. I have been travelling that road daily for maybe 8 years, and this jives with what I thought was the case. REroute yourself a few times, see what you think.

You want a road that the speeds are out of control, check Chancellors Run, limits 40, there you will find most folks at 50 or better, a lot over 55. I think. Which is why the MSP has been saturating the heck out of that road for months now with two cars a couple days a week.

 

[Pride4369]

Not sure about this, and if it is, not sure about the impartiality of whomever is doing the survey. But that would have to be asked when they decide to do one.

What would you bet? In the last day and a half, I have rerouted my commute down that road, from near Shangri-La to Rt five, travelled it six or seven times. 7am, lunchtime, 2pm, and around the 6-7pm timeframe. Two speed sections, a 40mph from around Compass systems to Rt 5 and its 35 from there back to 235 at Gate 2.

Travelling with the pack, so to speak,. Looks that the majority of folks are in the 5-7mph over range, 45-47 in the 40 and 40-42 in the 35. A few faster, fewer slower, but most folks are in the 5-7 over range. I'll do a few more days to get a better feel for it. I have been travelling that road daily for maybe 8 years, and this jives with what I thought was the case. REroute yourself a few times, see what you think.

You want a road that the speeds are out of control, check Chancellors Run, limits 40, there you will find most folks at 50 or better, a lot over 55. I think. Which is why the MSP has been saturating the heck out of that road for months now with two cars a couple days a week.

Traveling at those time and you went 5-7MPH is about right during the moringin rush at times, but what you are really looking for is not the isolated icidents. You are looking for the average speed over a period of time, and the 85th Percentile of all traffic traveled on that road. I agree Chancellors run road is OUT OF CONTROL two troopers getting some violations will do really nothing on that road.

 

[glhs837]

I see what you mean, but I really dont think you will find enough folks exceeding even 50 in the 40 and 42/43 in the 35 section to raise the average that much.

going that speed, I think I was passed twice in the whole length of the road, and the folks passing were not that much faster, I dont think. .

 

[Pushrod]

PR, there are a couple of other factors to consider. One, as you noted, is the review process. It's quite for the review process to be a rubber stamp. In fact, Baltimore, a police officer "signed" 2,000 plus citations as reviewed after he died.

Another is are you okay with an increase in rear end collisions in return for ticketing the red light runners?

Hopefully over time behavior will change and drivers will not tailgate as much. That is another big problem down here. Rear end collisions are much more survivable than a t-bone from someone running a red light.

 

[Pride4369]

Hopefully over time behavior will change and drivers will not tailgate as much. That is another big problem down here. Rear end collisions are much more survivable than a t-bone from someone running a red light.

That is a great point... Change is not easy and yes even at slow speeds a broad side wreck is bad. People will just have to remove there heads from their fourth point of contact and pay attention.

 

[Pushrod]

Traveling at those time and you went 5-7MPH is about right during the moringin rush at times, but what you are really looking for is not the isolated icidents. You are looking for the average speed over a period of time, and the 85th Percentile of all traffic traveled on that road. I agree Chancellors run road is OUT OF CONTROL two troopers getting some violations will do really nothing on that road.

Really!? REALLY!? They go only 5 - 7 over. It is 45 on Rt 235. I'll typically speed about 6-8 mph over to keep from getting rear ended. I don't feel comfortable driving that road faster then that. In the morning (between 5 and 5:30 am) I am getting passed by the MAJORITY of vehicles who are doing quite a bit faster than me (I would guess at least 15 mph over the posted speed).

I daily see drivers pushing through lights after they have changed to green in the direction I'm in. Especially turning into the base or onto 235. I'm surprised that the accident rate from that is not higher.

The other big 'accident waiting to happen' factor are the drivers pulling into the Right Turn only lanes to pass traffic and either shooting through the intersection in that lane or jamming theirselves back into traffic right before the intersection causing everyone behind them to slam on their brakes. I've had two vehicles in the past three months do that to me while I'm on my motorcycle, trying to slip into the same spot I'm occupying. Both times took some drastic manuevering on my part to keep from being squashed into the vehicle beside or behind me. One time I fended off with my boot denting their drivers door and the a-holes still didn't stop.