Sunday School for Atheists

[This_person]

If that's what you think, then you obviously need something to believe in to keep you in line.

My point is more big picture. I obviously understand that if there were never religion, there would still be some form of social amenities like not hurting other people ('cuz they might hurt you back), and trying to form bonds of friendship for alliances, etc. Doing unto others would be for self-preservation, like the other animals.

But, to refer to these codes of conduct as "morals" or values"? That's really the point of my question. When I think of these things, I think of deeper matters of right and wrong, based on a foundation of something. If humans are no more than the cattle in the field, just with a better tailor and dental plan, then what is the foundation of "right and wrong" for a "moral"? What justifies a moral to an atheist?

I'll give you my hypothesis once I read your answer.

 

[This_person]

they believe in everything you and I do except a supreme being.

thats it.

But, no supreme being implies no soul. No belief system in any theocracy implies no intelligent design, no common connection for all living things. This is why I believe atheists are, generally, pro-abortion. They see the life in the mother as just a clump of cells, with no deeper meaning, no soul - just like themselves. They've devalued life to a scientific equation.

 

[vraiblonde]

I don't think we deserve it any more than any of the others. But, we've been blessed (to drive the metaphor home) with this.

But I'm asking you, why are WE blessed and others aren't?

 

[This_person]

For the same reason I wouldn't let someone who believes in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy teach them.

Which is?

For, Santa and the Tooth Fairy can be demonstrably shown to be true or false. You don't allow your kids to have an open enough mind to listen to others points of view, and evaluate their beliefs themselves?

 

[mAlice]

My point is more big picture. I obviously understand that if there were never religion, there would still be some form of social amenities like not hurting other people ('cuz they might hurt you back), and trying to form bonds of friendship for alliances, etc. Doing unto others would be for self-preservation, like the other animals.

But, to refer to these codes of conduct as "morals" or values"? That's really the point of my question. When I think of these things, I think of deeper matters of right and wrong, based on a foundation of something. If humans are no more than the cattle in the field, just with a better tailor and dental plan, then what is the foundation of "right and wrong" for a "moral"? What justifies a moral to an atheist?

I'll give you my hypothesis once I read your answer.

Well, let's start with the fact that we're not cattle, and let's just add that most of us aren't wired to be criminals. We want to be gainfully employed, have friends, and be accepted by society in general. As for what's right or wrong, that really depends on the individual and living within the law of the land. I have yet, to this day, needed a god to assist me in doing that.

 

[mAlice]

You don't allow your kids to have an open enough mind to listen to others points of view, and evaluate their beliefs themselves?

Why would you assume that? I never said that. As a matter of fact, I suggested teaching about all religions.

 

[This_person]

But I'm asking you, why are WE blessed and others aren't?

I don't know, and wish I did. I don't suppose that it's chance, or coincidence, I think it's intended. I believe I'll find out once I pass on.

 

[Xaquin44]

My point is more big picture. I obviously understand that if there were never religion, there would still be some form of social amenities like not hurting other people ('cuz they might hurt you back), and trying to form bonds of friendship for alliances, etc. Doing unto others would be for self-preservation, like the other animals.

But, to refer to these codes of conduct as "morals" or values"? That's really the point of my question. When I think of these things, I think of deeper matters of right and wrong, based on a foundation of something. If humans are no more than the cattle in the field, just with a better tailor and dental plan, then what is the foundation of "right and wrong" for a "moral"? What justifies a moral to an atheist?

I'll give you my hypothesis once I read your answer.

People would and do create their own morals with and without the aid of religion all the time. It goes deeper then just 'cuz they might hurt you back'

honestly, I could take time to delve into every aspect of this, but it's obvious that without god people would still do most of what they do right now only with different impressions of what drives it.

 

[mAlice]

Oh, and let me add. My daughter believed in a god when she was little, because she believed what she was told to believe (parental teaching. Father, not me) Then she spent a part of her young adulthood not believing. Now she believes again. I have never hidden anything from her, but I'm certainly not going to insist she believe in one thing or another. She's an adult and has to make that decision for herself.

 

[This_person]

Well, let's start with the fact that we're not cattle, and let's just add that most of us aren't wired to be criminals. We want to be gainfully employed, have friends, and be accepted by society in general. As for what's right or wrong, that really depends on the individual and living within the law of the land. I have yet, to this day, needed a god to assist me in doing that.

To an atheist, how are humans different than cattle, outside of the opposable thumb?

As for living within the law of the land, and socially fitting in - those aren't morals. My question is what the foundation of the deeper meaning of "right and wrong" is to an atheist that would define morals.

 

[mAlice]

but it's obvious that without god people would still do most of what they do right now only with different impressions of what drives it.

All you have to do is watch the news to know that. Criminals get sent to jail...they find god. Pastors and Fathers molest children all the while hiding behind a cross. It sickens me. And people of faith want to tell me about morals.

 

[mAlice]

To an atheist, how are humans different than cattle, outside of the opposable thumb?

As for living within the law of the land, and socially fitting in - those aren't morals. My question is what the foundation of the deeper meaning of "right and wrong" is to an atheist that would define morals.

Here, this is for you....:clue:

 

[ItalianScallion]

But I'm asking you, why are WE blessed and others aren't?

Well Vrai, whether people believe it or not, God said He'll bless the nation who honors Him. (Psalm 33 v 12-22). Read these verses seriously. He also blesses SOME of those who don't believe in Him so that they can't say that He isn't good to them, but the major blessings come to those who honor Him. We saw the reprocussions of kicking God out of schools, government places & some areas of society. This proves that God does what He says.

 

[Xaquin44]

To an atheist, how are humans different than cattle, outside of the opposable thumb?

art, literature, music, language ....

etc etc.

 

[This_person]

Oh, and let me add. My daughter believed in a god when she was little, because she believed what she was told to believe (parental teaching. Father, not me) Then she spent a part of her young adulthood not believing. Now she believes again. I have never hidden anything from her, but I'm certainly not going to insist she believe in one thing or another. She's an adult and has to make that decision for herself.

I certainly did not mean to offend. I think, because I was reading what you were responding to when you said:

As an adult who doesn't deal with peer pressure, this is the obvious response. Children and teenagers, even some young adults, tend to follow things that appear trendy or cool. They spend a lot of years trying to figure out who they are, what they stand for, where they're going.

Knowledge is power.

and then followed my question with

For the same reason I wouldn't let someone who believes in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy teach them.

that I got the wrong impression. I'm not being sarcastic, I think I really did get the wrong impression. Sorry!

 

[mAlice]

Well Vrai, whether people believe it or not, God said He'll bless the nation who honors Him.

I wasn't aware that America is the only country in the world that believes in god. Go figger.

 

[This_person]

All you have to do is watch the news to know that. Criminals get sent to jail...they find god. Pastors and Fathers molest children all the while hiding behind a cross. It sickens me. And people of faith want to tell me about morals.

Yes, good people do bad things. It sucks.

But, I'm not trying to tell you about morals. I'm asking you what the foundation of morals are for an athiest. Where does the bigger picture of right and wrong come from?

 

[mAlice]

. Where does the bigger picture of right and wrong come from?

Intelligent discernment.

 

[This_person]

Here, this is for you....:clue:

Please, fill the clue in. I'm asking a serious question here, not challenging you.

What separates and makes more special your life than that of the cow that made up my hamburger for lunch? Or, more realistically, the life of a human you've never met?

 

[This_person]

art, literature, music, language ....

etc etc.

So, we're above other animals because we can communicate?