The GOP's TITANIC Shiavo mistake...

[Bruzilla]

How do you know if this is recent video? I have not seen anything "dated"... This video could be from a few years ago and perhaps she isn't in that same state now... Could be why her husband has decided to take this course of action now. The fact remains that none of us really know enough about her or this case to make a judgement.

Most all of the video that you are seeing on TV is about five years old, and is distributed by the Schindlers. Terry's condition has deteriorated since then, and her cerebral cortex is just about gone. This is why Congress is backing off the supoena to have her come to DC to "testify." It would just make their arguments seem more rediculous.

I agree with Ken that starving her isn't right, but what choice is there? It's like the Maryland State Police saying that someone is "not disapproved" to buy a handgun rather than "approved." It's seemingly rediculous but legally necessary to protect against litigation. It's the same deal here. In an ideal World, she would be shot full of morphine and expire in minutes, but then that would be seen by some as killing her. By removing the feeding tube the hospital is seen as letting her die vice killing her. It sounds stupid but that's the way our legal system has become.

As for people who have been saying "we wouldn't do that to a criminal" or "in Florida you can't even do that to an animal", they are right. The fact that 19 Florida judges in six different courts, plus about 14 Federal judges, and close to 40 highly-competent, professional, physicians, have found that Terry Schiavo is not actually alive anymore should tell you something. If there was any chance, any chance at all, that someone had truly found any cognitive thought in her we wouldn't be having this discussion. The Schindlers can find all the quacks they want to say otherwise, but the fact is that this woman is brain dead, has no concious thought, and is merely an automatron. While many of us would like to believe that the human conciousness is some kind of unfathomable mystery, it isn't. Every thought you've ever had generates signals, and these signals can be detected and measured, and their source determined. The fact is that Terry Schiavo's brain isn't generating anything but core signals meant to keep the body functioning, which are the last signals to die in the case of oxygen starvation.

 

[sleuth]

I just don't understand why the GOP is pressing this issue when national polls have shown that 65+% of Americans believe that Schiavo should be allowed to die.

Secondly, I've never been a parent, so maybe I just don't understand what Schiavo's parents are going through, but who would want their child to have to live like that? And since at one time, it seems, they and Schiavo's husband were on supposedly very good terms, why would they believe that he would lie to them about Terri's wishes?

If he had an ulterior motive and just wanted to be free of her, couldn't he just divorce her and be done with it? The only other motive I could see would be some kind of life insurance policy, but at this point, he's got to be so saddled with debt that any type of life insurance award would be worthless. :shrug:

 

[carolinagirl]

The guy who was her court appointed guardian was on Olbermann last night. He spent 30 days going over Terri Schiavo's medical and legal records, and spent countless hours at her bedside.

He says the videos are a fraud - that you can wave something in front of her face 100 times and maybe one time she'll happen to turn her head, and that's what the parents are showing, just that one time instead of the other 99.

Regarding the "smile", he says that's fraudulent as well. Says that she grimaces involuntarily and that's what's being mistaken for a "smile" on the video. The parents have taken hours and hours of video and clipped the parts that make her look like she's aware.

At the end of the day, 19 judges have ruled that she is in a persistent vegative state, based on her medical records and the testimony of people who have actually spent time with her. Now. If you want to say that 19 random judges are wrong about Florida law, that's your prerogative. If you want to believe the silly stories about the husband trying to murder her, even though there is no evidence and these allegations have no merit, that's your prerogative as well.

Just as it's MY prerogative to be stunned by your lack of common sense.

I tend to beleive this guy, otherwise why would we only see the same video footage and same picture over and over. I agree that the picture of her mother standing over her looks as if Terri is looking at her coherently, but that is the only picture I have seen. If she is as alert as her parents say, they would have put out alot more photos and videos.

 

[vraiblonde]

If she is as alert as her parents say, they would have put out alot more photos and videos.

Great point.

 

[Llwynog]

I am also dismayed that with laws specifically dictating how life is to be protected there are judges acting contrary to those laws. We might not agree with or like the laws that exist but we shouldn’t just disregard them when following them does not achieve the result we desire.

You forget it was a group of doctors who evaluated and determined her to be in a vegetative state.

 

[vraiblonde]

You forget it was a group of doctors who evaluated and determined her to be in a vegetative state.

Actually, it was several groups of doctors. But let's don't let facts and professional opinions get in the way of a good emotional argument.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ken...

I am also dismayed that with laws specifically dictating how life is to be protected there are judges acting contrary to those laws. We might not agree with or like the laws that exist but we shouldn’t just disregard them when following them does not achieve the result we desire.

Isn't there a US Supreme Court approved individual right to die via refusal of treatment? Doesn't this trump state law?

 

[Ken King]

Isn't there a US Supreme Court approved individual right to die via refusal of treatment? Doesn't this trump state law?

Is there? I haven't searched the Supremes as this in my mind is about Florida. If there was a right to die would euthanasia be allowed nationwide?

 

[Larry Gude]

Bruz...

I can not express how embarrassed I have felt this week to be a Republican, and I'm not alone.

That's why I started this thread.

You stated in the Shiavo thread in current events that the case is as it is turning out to be. All I wanted was some facts to counter the Shiavo sob fest.

I got 'em and you were right.

Now, the whole world gets to watch all the facts slowly gurgle to the surface and those who bought the Shiavo desperation plea get to try and spit that fish hook up.

THAT will be the entertainment, watching the contortion.

PS: Limbaugh has just reduced his almost always right %'s.

In a big way.

 

[Sparx]

I just don't understand why the GOP is pressing this issue when national polls have shown that 65+% of Americans believe that Schiavo should be allowed to die.

Secondly, I've never been a parent, so maybe I just don't understand what Schiavo's parents are going through, but who would want their child to have to live like that? And since at one time, it seems, they and Schiavo's husband were on supposedly very good terms, why would they believe that he would lie to them about Terri's wishes?

If he had an ulterior motive and just wanted to be free of her, couldn't he just divorce her and be done with it? The only other motive I could see would be some kind of life insurance policy, but at this point, he's got to be so saddled with debt that any type of life insurance award would be worthless. :shrug:

It's because the gop is being run by religious zealots today instead of ethical and common sense thinkers.

 

[somdcrab]

That's why I started this thread.

You stated in the Shiavo thread in current events that the case is as it is turning out to be. All I wanted was some facts to counter the Shiavo sob fest.

I got 'em and you were right.

Now, the whole world gets to watch all the facts slowly gurgle to the surface and those who bought the Shiavo desperation plea get to try and spit that fish hook up.

THAT will be the entertainment, watching the contortion.

PS: Limbaugh has just reduced his almost always right %'s.
proud to be a democrat and respectful of individual and marriage rights

 

[Ken King]

Actually, it was several groups of doctors. But let's don't let facts and professional opinions get in the way of a good emotional argument.

True this is emotional and that is why I am trying to look at the laws as they apply in an effort to strip any emotion I hold out of the discussion. I notice that by doing so you seem to think I lack common sense, that might be so. I could say the same about your support for a person that by most accounts has not done everything recommended or that could be done on Terri's behalf, but why digress to personal attacks. It might be fun but it adds nothing.

A sticking point for me is in the way that PVS is defined by Florida law where it says that there must be "the absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind." This is very open, broad and totally subjective as to what would or would not be considered as a voluntary action or cognitive behavior. It isn’t bound by any time limits that I can find. Hell, I'm not even positive as to what they mean for sure and given a group of people discussing this we all seem to think it is something different, which just might invalidate the law for that reason alone, the vagueness of the requirement.

My bottom line is that I think that the way she is being treated is wrong, that by doing so the decisions appear to violate Florida law as spelled out in the Adult Protection Act, and finally I wouldn’t wish this situation upon anyone.

 

[Larry Gude]

About time...

It's because the gop is being run by religious zealots today instead of ethical and common sense thinkers.

...somebody said something substantive.

Sparx, this is called a 'debate'. You've never seen one because that's not what your lock step crew does.

You do dogma.

 

[Larry Gude]

Kk...

Is there? I haven't searched the Supremes as this in my mind is about Florida. If there was a right to die would euthanasia be allowed nationwide?

Everything I'm finidng references back to the 14th amendment summarized thus:

Choosing which medical care, if any, you will ultilize is a privilege, a personal freedom one should not be deprived of. If taking such medical care would, in an individual's opinion, infringe upon their freedom to make their own choices, or their pursuit of happiness, it is, in my opinion, prohibited by the Constitution

But I can't find any specific federal ruling.

At this point, my thinking is that the guy clearly tried to have everything possible done for her the first couple of years. Pretty much all the money was spent for her care. First hand experience and numerous neurologists convinced him it was futile. He had a falling out with the aprents (who lived with him for two years) because they refused to give up. He tried to let her go claiming it was her wish. They started a personal war to discredit him. He dug his heels in. All the while state law continually sided with him. The feds agree with the state.

So here we are. He sees it as his duty to let her go. They see it as their duty to keep her alive no matter what.

 

[Larry Gude]

I disagree...

This is very open, broad and totally subjective as to what would or would not be considered as a voluntary action or cognitive behavior

(Ken said)

It appears the weight of the vast majority of the experts do not disagree in substance as referenced, repeatedly, by the courts.

 

[Tomcat]

What I see on t.v. is her mom positioning her head while her eyes just look anywhere. If mom tilts her head to the side you cannot see her eyes and it SEEMS she is looking at mom.

How do you know if this is recent video? I have not seen anything "dated"... This video could be from a few years ago and perhaps she isn't in that same state now... Could be why her husband has decided to take this course of action now. The fact remains that none of us really know enough about her or this case to make a judgement.

He says the videos are a fraud - that you can wave something in front of her face 100 times and maybe one time she'll happen to turn her head, and that's what the parents are showing, just that one time instead of the other 99.
Regarding the "smile", he says that's fraudulent as well. Says that she grimaces involuntarily and that's what's being mistaken for a "smile" on the video. The parents have taken hours and hours of video and clipped the parts that make her look like she's aware.

I have questioned the same thing, I've noticed that the particular clip they keep showing is from 2001, with all the recent events how come there's no new video? Because she's in a worse condition than what they want you to believe??? just my $.02 worth

 

[Tinkerbell]

Sick of Terri

I've had just about enough of the Terri Schaivo Case. She should have had a living will. The only injustice done is the one she did to herself, her husband and her parents. If she would have been a responsible adult and had a living will, all of this never would have happened.

 

[mAlice]

I've had just about enough of the Terri Schaivo Case. She should have had a living will. The only injustice done is the one she did to herself, her husband and her parents. If she would have been a responsible adult and had a living will, all of this never would have happened.

Do you have a living will?

 

[sleuth]

I've had just about enough of the Terri Schaivo Case. She should have had a living will. The only injustice done is the one she did to herself, her husband and her parents. If she would have been a responsible adult and had a living will, all of this never would have happened.

How old was she when she got sick?
I'm 27 and, because I'm planning on getting married, have only just begin to consider a living will. I'm also in the process of planning my last will too.

She's been sick for like 15 years or so... at that time she would have been in her early 20s if I'm not mistaken. How many 20 year olds do you know with living wills?

 

[Larry Gude]

She is 41 now...

How old was she when she got sick?
I'm 27 and, because I'm planning on getting married, have only just begin to consider a living will. I'm also in the process of planning my last will too.

She's been sick for like 15 years or so... at that time she would have been in her early 20s if I'm not mistaken. How many 20 year olds do you know with living wills?

...had her 'accident' in 1990. So she was 26.

I could give a #### about a living will. What I can't conceive is two married adults (they married 1984) living together for 6 years and NOT knowing, explicitly, how one another felt about many, many things including assisted suicide and being on life support.

I think Michael knows damn well how Terri felt. I think the parents know damn well.