The Meaning Of The Cross

[Marie]

Paul teaches the true meaning of the cross. Something most modern evangelicals fail to do!

As we get the hundreds of man centered sermons on salvation this weekend, Remember the cross is for his honnor and his Golry!
So that it will be a whitness unto him, and people will say Wow what an amazing God that he would do that for those that hate him and are his enemy.


http://media.switchpod.com/users/jjbibleministry/Paul_Washer__The_Meaning_Of_The_Cross.mp3

 

[wxtornado]

This actually fleshes out to a very interesting question :

What exactly was the 'great sacrifice' on the cross? Does suffering for 8 hours while carrying first hand knowledge that Heaven is on the other side of the suffering qualify as a 'great sacrifice'?

 

[Starman3000m]

This actually fleshes out to a very interesting question :

What exactly was the 'great sacrifice' on the cross? Does suffering for 8 hours while carrying first hand knowledge that Heaven is on the other side of the suffering qualify as a 'great sacrifice'?

The Great Sacrifice is what paves the way for you to receive forgiveness and be reconciled with God through no merit of your own.

Yeshua (New Testament Jesus) came from heaven to become a representative for mankind and offer Himself as a perfect sinless being whose shed blood atones for the sins of anyone who believes in Him. Yes, he suffered pain and humiliation and was hated without a cause. But, it had to be.

If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
(John 12:26-28 (King James Version)

It takes an inner evaluation on the part of each person whether they are willing to let God come into his/her life and guide them into a spiritual relationship with Him and a loving relationship toward all people.

In the case of a Skeptic/Atheist, God continues to offer His Plan of Salvation through Yeshua's Atoning Blood but cannot save anyone who totally rejects Him and denies His existence through their own free will. That, according to the Holy Bible is the only unforgiveable sin. All other sins are forgiveable.

 

[mAlice]

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.


idol

1: a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
2 a: a likeness of something bobsolete : pretender, impostor
3: a form or appearance visible but without substance <an enchanted phantom, a lifeless idol — P. B. Shelley>
4: an object of extreme devotion <a movie idol>; also : ideal 2
5: a false conception : fallacy

 

[wxtornado]

My argument is that He's God -- what's the big deal? According to your belief system, he created all of existence, is infinitely powerful, knows everything, and can never be dead or damned or hurt or troubled or worried or anything.

So what's the big deal? It's no different from saying Jim Carveizal in The Passion "died for our sins". No he didn't. He's an actor in a play that was pre-written with the ending already known. So was Jesus. No difference at all.

What you stand back with eyes wide in awe at, I look at as a self-conflicting, contradictory fable that doesn't make any sense.

Again: If he's this all-powerful God you insist he is, then he can't "sacrifice" anything under any circumstances. Hell, I'm certain millions more suffered far greater pain and torment in concentration camps under Hitler than did Jesus.

It's just no big deal.

 

[mAlice]

I never really thought about that. No, it wasn't really a sacrifice, was it? Interesting.

 

[mAlice]

Someone in my position would have to wonder, why did this particular myth (for the sake of discussion) took off, and the others didn't.

Maybe because this one gave us something tangible that wasn't present with other myths. Jesus. A human being, just like the rest of us. Something we could relate to and have sympathy for. Just a thought.

 

[Starman3000m]

I never really thought about that. No, it wasn't really a sacrifice, was it? Interesting.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
(Hebrews 9:19-23) - King James Version


And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
(Luke 22:19-21) - King James Version

Yeshua was The Lamb of God:

 

[wxtornado]

Someone in my position would have to wonder, why did this particular myth (for the sake of discussion) took off, and the others didn't.

Maybe because this one gave us something tangible that wasn't present with other myths. Jesus. A human being, just like the rest of us. Something we could relate to and have sympathy for. Just a thought.

I am one of those who believe there is even such scant evidence for Jesus' historical existence that in all likelihood he is more an amalgam of different characters blended into one during a legend-making process that came out of an oppressed people.

There is simply no evidence other than the bible, and even that we have no originals of, and at best it was all written decades after the alleged events. Add to that the fact that Jesus isn't particularly a unique demi-god, but is similar to dozens of other such beings in mythology (Hercules is the son of god, for instance) , plus there are earlier teachings of his philosophy (Confucious taught the golden rule 500 years before the time of Jesus), and there is no reason to conclude Jesus was even a real person anymore than there is reason to believe Hercules was real.

Now if Jesus was real, that's fine, but until there is some level of evidence that he was a real being, one can conclude according to the dearth of evidence for it, or in spite of the evidence against it -- which most people do. They simply believe he existed, without any true support for the contention other than the book that claims he existed... claims he existed.

But that's like believing in Apollo because Bulfinch's Mythology tells stories about Apollo...........

 

[itsbob]

The cross has meaning?

I thought it was two peices of wood used to torture and kill people?

It was a weapon the same as a noose, or a gun, or an electric chair, or the gas chamber.

I would think as offensive as a noose is to a black person, a cross would be to a Christian.

 

[Starman3000m]

The cross has meaning?

I thought it was two peices of wood used to torture and kill people?

It was a weapon the same as a noose, or a gun, or an electric chair, or the gas chamber.

I would think as offensive as a noose is to a black person, a cross would be to a Christian.

Crucifixion on a "cross" was a form of Roman capital punishment.
The meaning to a follower of Yeshua is not one of celebration but of solemn remembrance of the ultimate pain and method of punishment that He endured through the hatred that mankind had toward His teaching about love for God and love for fellow man.

 

[Starman3000m]

Main Entry: sacrifice
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): sacrificed; sacrific·ing
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 : to offer as a sacrifice
2 : to suffer loss of, give up, renounce, injure, or destroy especially for an ideal, belief, or end
3 : to sell at a loss
4 : to advance (a base runner) by means of a sacrifice hit
5 : to kill (an animal) as part of a scientific experiment
intransitive verb
1 : to make or perform the rites of a sacrifice
2 : to make a sacrifice hit in baseball

Once again, it's really hard to call what Jesus commited a "sacrifice" since he's (a) a God (not arguing the facts, just the belief) and (b) he's headed back home to Heaven.

He came out on top, if he gave his life to absolve the sins of Man, and the result was he'd spend eternity in Hell, that would be a "sacrifice"

-

The Atonement of Yeshua's Blood is what sets you free from the grasp that Satan has over your soul. Yeshua did not need to do it at all since all of mankind had been cursed because of Adam and Eve's transgression into willful disobedience of God.

It's what Yeshua has done that keeps you from spending your eternity in Hell - IF you trust in Him as Lord and Saviour. Apart from that you're on your own to try to live a perfect life - free of hatred, prejudice, anger, lust, contempt toward others, etc.

 

[mAlice]

The Atonement of Yeshua's Blood is what sets you free from the grasp that Satan has over your soul. Yeshua did not need to do it at all since all of mankind had been cursed because of Adam and Eve's transgression into willful disobedience of God.

It's what Yeshua has done that keeps you from spending your eternity in Hell - IF you trust in Him as Lord and Saviour. Apart from that you're on your own to try to live a perfect life - free of hatred, prejudice, anger, lust, contempt toward others, etc.

You seem to have your own personal little discussion with yourself going on here.

 

[Starman3000m]

You seem to have your own personal little discussion with yourself going on here.

LOL

Actually, this is what is said about the nature of those who are in obedience and those who are in disobedience to God's Authority:

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

(Galatians 5:14-25) - King James Version

 

[mAlice]

LOL

Actually, this is what is said about the nature of those who are in obedience and those who are in disobedience to God's Authority:

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

(Galatians 5:14-25) - King James Version

You should start your own thread. You're not on the same page as the rest of us.

 

[itsbob]

Crucifixion on a "cross" was a form of Roman capital punishment.
The meaning .. is not one of celebration but of solemn remembrance of the ultimate pain and method of punishment that black people endured through the hatred that mankind had toward them and the color of their skin ....

So you agree, to a Christian, the cross should be offensive.

Many black people sacrificed and suffered with their heads in a noose... but i don't see it displayed, or idolized or worshiped.

 

[Starman3000m]

So you agree, to a Christian, the cross should be offensive.

Many black people sacrificed and suffered with their heads in a noose... but i don't see it displayed, or idolized or worshiped.

I agree that the symbol of a cross should not be idolized or worshipped in any form whatsoever. However, I personally don't regard the symbol of a cross as being "offensive" - it's just there as a reminder of the price Yeshua paid.

I'd say the ones who find the "cross" offensive are actually those who are offended by Yeshua's teachings ( and vampires! lol)

 

[libby]

I think it might be interesting to consider Jesus' death not as a Sacrifice, though it is just that, but as Love.
Does it change anything in your mind that God (who is God, and therefore didn't have to) became man (which is what He made us) and endured all of the sufferings that we suffer, for love of us?
God could have accomplished redemption from His Throne in Heaven, but then wouldn't we be dissatisfied that He had no sympathy or understanding of our trials? We would be here on earth saying, "Isn't that fine. God has no idea what we are going through."
Jesus Christ is different from every other "god" because His message was different and His life was different. All of the things that He taught were the opposite of what our finite minds consider right, or reasonable, from "the last shall be first", to "love your enemies". I think we can all agree that if each of us lived with that paradigm, the world would be a perfect place.
Most wise men have taught some portion of what Jesus Christ taught, but not the fullness of what He taught. That just proves that there is a natural law that God imprinted on our hearts.
On another note. Is the labor and delivery of a baby any less painful because the mother knows that joy awaits when it is over? I'm not sure I understand how the premise of His Divinity negates His Sacrifice.

 

[Marie]

I understand your argument.

Since he's God, and he knows heaven is awaiting, was it really a sacrifice?

Thats similiar to a dieter "sacrificing" his diet for a chocolate chip cookie.

Now if the "story" was that Jesus sacrifieced himself to eternal damnation in Hell, so that the Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve could live without sin, that would have been powerful!

I am not sure I understand but I think I do.
Maybe the better question is, What was in the cup that Christ prayed to have it pass from him? Is this the question?
The sacrifce he made wasnt so much the pain and the agony of the cross that was really very little for as great as it was, the agony, was the seperation from God and the Wrath of God poured out on him, and God took great pleasure in doing so.
Check this out, I dont know if you realize how badly God hates sin,
But if God took all my sins alone and poured out his wrath just for them on someone it would be unimaginable, and thats just mine now multiply that by every person ever born and yet to be born.

 

[mAlice]

The sacrifce he made wasnt so much the pain and the agony of the cross that was really very little for as great as it was, the agony, was the seperation from God and the Wrath of God poured out on him, and God took great pleasure in doing so.

Who was seperated from god? Jesus? Explain how Jesus was seperated from god, if god became Jesus. I'm not getting the seperation part. The wrath of god was poured out on...who?