The Meaning Of The Cross

[mAlice]

Marie, from the page that you linked to:

There are two quotes that mention Jesus in Josephus' Antiquities: A smaller and a larger one. Both of these have been targeted by the Jesus-myth circle as interpolations made by later Christian scribes. Wells [Well.WhoW, 21; Well.DidJ, 14] , for example, rejects the small passage as a partial interpolation or marginal gloss, as did Drews [Drew.WH, 10]. Stretching the polemic, Wells says that it is "widely admitted" that both this passage, and the larger one are interpolations.

 

[Starman3000m]

Once again, the bible contradicts itself. Or, it's "a parable", or whatever is convenient for the sake of convincing others why something is okay.

"it is written"...well, there isn't much that isn't written in the bible. I'd say the authors pretty much covered their bases.

I don't see any contradiction here. The "Cross" is only a symbol of remembrance (not an idol) of the ultimate sacrfice that Yeshua paid as a ransom in order to free mankind from the curse of eternal death and separation from God that came through Adam and Eve. Followers were also reminded by Yeshua that they too would suffer persecution, hatred, ridicule and antagonism from those who opposed His teachings

Some people who are not even Christian wear a cross just as a piece of jewelry and it means nothing to them other than a "fashionable" artifact.

However, as stated before, the only ones who would really find the "cross" to be offensive are Skeptics/Atheists (and vampires - lol) and of course Satan who is reminded of his defeat by Yeshua's Blood Atonement that was shed upon the cross of Calvary. It is through that Cross whereby you can be set free to establish a personal and saving relationship with God through Yeshua and whereby Satan loses his grasp on your soul.

"I Am The Way, The Truth And The Life; No Man Can Come Unto The Father Except Through Me." (John 14:6)

 

[mAlice]

People did see him 3 days latter alive and walking around and eating food.
The Stone would need to be moved for the apostles and the women.
His body was not fully spirit Thomas put his fingers in the wounds Jesus ate spirits dont eat food. His resurected body was a body but yet he could do things our bodies cant do this is the type of body we expect to have in heaven.

To me, that sounds like he didn't die, re-enforcing the "farce" theory.

 

[Starman3000m]

To me, that sounds like he didn't die, re-enforcing the "farce" theory.

Yeshua died physically, but rose again spiritually and in a resurrected bodily form - the kind that the Children of God will have in the day of Resurrection.

In other words, Yeshua's Resurrection shows that there is life after death and life eternal with God.

 

[mAlice]

I don't see any contradiction here. The "Cross" is only a symbol of remembrance (not an idol) of the ultimate sacrfice that Yeshua paid as a ransom in order to free mankind from the curse of eternal death and separation from God that came through Adam and Eve.

Some people who are not even Christian wear a cross just as a piece of jewelry and it means nothing to them other than a "fashionable" artifact.

However, as stated before, the only ones who would really find the "cross" to be offensive are Skeptics/Atheists (and vampires - lol) and of course Satan who is reminded of his defeat by Yeshua's Blood Atonement that was shed upon the cross of Calvary. It is through that Cross whereby you can be set free to establish a personal and saving relationship with God through Yeshua and whereby Satan loses his grasp on your soul.

"I Am The Way, The Truth And The Life; No Man Can Come Unto The Father Except Through Me." (John 14:6)

I don't find the cross offensive at all. I have beautiful crosses that I put on my xmas tree, I have crosses hanging on my wall, and if I were a jewelry person, I might even wear one on my neck. I don't believe in a deity, so it's just a bauble to me.

I would think that someone who searches the bible for answers wouldn't make stuff up to suit them, and that's what I think has happened to the bible throughout it's history and many different authors.

 

[Starman3000m]

I don't find the cross offensive at all. I have beautiful crosses that I put on my xmas tree, I have crosses hanging on my wall, and if I were a jewelry person, I might even wear one on my neck. I don't believe in a deity, so it's just a bauble to me.

I would think that someone who searches the bible for answers wouldn't make stuff up to suit them, and that's what I think has happened to the bible throughout it's history and many different authors.

So you agree that having the physical symbol of a cross is not necessarily "idolatry"?

 

[Marie]

I don't see any contradiction here. The "Cross" is only a symbol of remembrance (not an idol) of the ultimate sacrfice that Yeshua paid as a ransom in order to free mankind from the curse of eternal death and separation from God that came through Adam and Eve. Followers were also reminded by Yeshua that they too would suffer persecution, hatred, ridicule and antagonism from those who opposed His teachings

Some people who are not even Christian wear a cross just as a piece of jewelry and it means nothing to them other than a "fashionable" artifact.

However, as stated before, the only ones who would really find the "cross" to be offensive are Skeptics/Atheists (and vampires - lol) and of course Satan who is reminded of his defeat by Yeshua's Blood Atonement that was shed upon the cross of Calvary. It is through that Cross whereby you can be set free to establish a personal and saving relationship with God through Yeshua and whereby Satan loses his grasp on your soul.

"I Am The Way, The Truth And The Life; No Man Can Come Unto The Father Except Through Me." (John 14:6)

I dont wear my faith on my neck or my car bumper. If my life isnt example enough then I have a problem. Besides when I do sin, I certainly dont want to give Christ a black eye.

 

[mAlice]

So you agree that having the physical symbol of a cross is not necessarily "idolatry"?

I believe it is idolatry if one believes what the bible says.

 

[Starman3000m]

I dont wear my faith on my neck or my car bumper. If my life isnt example enough then I have a problem. Besides when I do sin, I certainly dont want to give Christ a black eye.

Excellent point Marie! Many times I have almost been forced off the road by someone who cuts in front of me on the highway and they have a "Christian fish" symbol on the back of their car. Some witness, eh?

I agree that actions speak louder than words and symbols. Just wearing a cross or having a fish symbol to show a profession of faith carries an obligation to walk the walk all the time - otherwise disbelievers will use it as an excuse to ridicule and lump all followers of Yeshua into the "hypocrite" bin and justify their turning away from considering the ways of Yeshua.

However, as stated before, just having the symbol does not mean that a person is a true follower of Yeshua.

 

[Starman3000m]

I believe it is idolatry if one believes what the bible says.

It is only idolatry when God, who is all knowing, knows a person's mindset where that symbol is replacing Him in his/her faith.

In your case where you have many types of crosses, as you have stated, God knows that you are a skeptic, don't believe in Yeshua's Atonement on the cross, BUT, as long as you have a cross it still represents a symbol of capital punishment exacted by Rome in the days of Yeshua.

 

[mAlice]

It is only idolatry when God, who is all knowing, knows a person's mindset where that symbol is replacing Him in his/her faith.

In your case where you have many types of crosses, as you have stated, God knows that you are a skeptic, don't believe in Yeshua's Atonement on the cross, BUT, as long as you have a cross it still represents a symbol of capital punishment exacted by Rome in the days of Yeshua.

I've been well beyond skepticism for many years. I'm a non believer.

The cross is not specific to christianity, and shows up well before the christian era.

Behold...dionysus...

 

[Starman3000m]

I've been well beyond skepticism for many years. I'm a non believer.

The cross is not specific to christianity, and shows up well before the christian era.

Behold...dionysus...

As mentioned, the "Cross" is still a symbol of capital punishment that was exacted by the Roman Government; and, yes, the Roman rule existed well before the Christian era.

 

[mAlice]

As mentioned, the "Cross" is still a symbol of capital punishment that was exacted by the Roman Government; and, yes, the Roman rule existed well before the Christian era.

So you're saying it's okay for a christian to wear something that was associated with pagan gods, even though your god said to put no other gods before him?

 

[Starman3000m]

So you're saying it's okay for a christian to wear something that was associated with pagan gods, even though your god said to put no other gods before him?

In Christianity, the "cross" is not symbolic of a "pagan god" it is symbolic of the form of punishment that Yeshua suffered and as imposed by the Roman leader, Pontius Pilate.

In those days, people accused of a capital offense against Rome were crucified on a cross while in Judaism the person would have been stoned to death. Since the jurisdiction overseeing Yeshua was of Roman rule, Yeshua's punishment was Roman punishment and this because He was accused of "treason" against Rome. By contrast, Orthodox Jewish leaders would have stoned Yeshua for blasphemy because He claimed to be the Moshiach and Divine Son of God.

 

[mAlice]

In Christianity, the "cross" is not symbolic of a "pagan god" it is symbolic of the form of punishment that Yeshua suffered and as imposed by the Roman leader, Pontius Pilate.

In those days, people accused of a capital offense against Rome were crucified on a cross while in Judaism the person would have been stoned to death. Since the jurisdiction overseeing Yeshua was of Roman rule, Yeshua's punishment was Roman punishment and this because He was accused of "treason" against Rome. By contrast, Orthodox Jewish leaders would have stoned Yeshua for blasphemy because He claimed to be the Moshiach and Divine Son of God.

It is shown representing the crucifixion of a pagan god, which in my opinion is who Jesus was fashioned after. So it is a representation of paganism. You simply can't argue your way out of that.

 

[Starman3000m]

It is shown representing the crucifixion of a pagan god, which in my opinion is who Jesus was fashioned after. So it is a representation of paganism. You simply can't argue your way out of that.

Or is it? Perhaps paganism was formed in a matter that counterfeited a future and prophetic occurrence that God had already ordained and let be known to the prophets of old. Enter Satan (the master of deception) who comes along and forms a similar type of religious belief flowered with feel-good traditions that people are tricked into following - like sheep.

There are also many foreshadowing events that took place that pointed to the need of a Messianic Saviour. Thus, (enter Satan again) we have the confusion of so many religions that claim to be the right one while Satan has a hay-day with misleading people from the Truth of the Real Yeshua HaMashiach (New Testament Jesus).

 

[Starman3000m]

Even if those beliefs and practices predate the Bible?

but then how could that be?

Worship of God began at the foundation of Creation with Adam and Eve even before any pagan form of worship began. Now, enter Satan (again) who was there to create deviations of worship that took mankind's attention away from God and placed them on other gods. All substitute deities that people would readily accept - just as the Children of Israel had the golden calf made up to be worshipped.

In other words,at that time it was easier for man to be deceived into believing in a deity that could be seen and touched and given "power" but in this case it was the false religious leaders led astray by Satan who established what the powers of those gods had over people.

 

[mAlice]

Worship of God began at the foundation of Creation with Adam and Eve even before any pagan form of worship began. Now, enter Satan (again) who was there to create deviations of worship that took mankind's attention away from God and placed them on other gods. All substitute deities that people would readily accept - just as the Children of Israel had the golden calf made up to be worshipped.

In other words,at that time it was easier for man to be deceived into believing in a deity that could be seen and touched and given "power" but in this case it was the false religious leaders led astray by Satan who established what the powers of those gods had over people.

Do you have any biblical or historical documentation to back up that theory?

 

[Starman3000m]

Do you have any biblical or historical documentation to back up that theory?

The written accounts of the Torah/Tanakh document the relationship that mankind had with God from the start of Creation. It was holy men of God who were able to communicate with God and through which God revealed His Truths. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and our way of communication and being led by God is through a spiritual relationship.

The biblical Patriarchs: Noah, Abraham and Moses along with the Old Testament Prophets were used by God to convey His message of guidance to the people.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21)

The way that we are now to relate to God is through faith in His Plan of Salvation for mankind through Yeshua and our spiritual being as mentioned in John 4:24:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[libby]

No libby, the act of reading the historical accounts from the book known as "The Bible" is not the same as "idolizing it". It is gleaning information from and learning how to establish one's relationship with God and with others.

It is not the physical book that is "idolized". I can see a person expressing appreciation for the information contained within The Bible and holding it tight to their body and even kissing it out of joy of what he/she has learned.

However, these actions you speak of should not be in reverence to the actual book you have in your hand but reverence to the Author of the Bible and knowing that it is God's Word to mankind. Besides, God would know where a person's heart is when any such action is made.

I am sure that there are some people who take their thoughts and faith directly off of God and place them onto an artifact, a statue, another person, a rabbit's foot, or even the symbol of a cross believing it to be a "good luck charm" and in that case it would constitute idolatry.

I am very surprised to hear this from you. Every single Bible Christian I have ever spoken has told me that, according to Scripture, it is idolatry for me to have the crucifix in my house, or a statue of the Lord (and in my case, the Blessed Virgin is also here). As a Catholic, I have defended the practice of having images to so many, trying to explain that it is simply a reminder, or a focal point, to no avail.
I do kneel down for prayer before a crucifix to keep myself focused on Jesus Christ, and I certainly do not confuse Him with the image on the wall. Again, quite speechless that you have said it is an acceptable practice as long as one's heart is where it should be, a point on which we completely agree.
So, I have a follow on question...is this something that Bible Christians do not consider "essential doctrine"? How can you and Italian Scallion be reading the same Bible and coming up with different interpretations for what is being said?