The Meaning Of The Cross

[Marie]

I am very surprised to hear this from you. Every single Bible Christian I have ever spoken has told me that, according to Scripture, it is idolatry for me to have the crucifix in my house, or a statue of the Lord (and in my case, the Blessed Virgin is also here). As a Catholic, I have defended the practice of having images to so many, trying to explain that it is simply a reminder, or a focal point, to no avail.
I do kneel down for prayer before a crucifix to keep myself focused on Jesus Christ, and I certainly do not confuse Him with the image on the wall. Again, quite speechless that you have said it is an acceptable practice as long as one's heart is where it should be, a point on which we completely agree.
So, I have a follow on question...is this something that Bible Christians do not consider "essential doctrine"? How can you and Italian Scallion be reading the same Bible and coming up with different interpretations for what is being said?

Libby,
You said your reminders arent an idol and that your not worshiping them so thats end of story on that point, but.. Here are the verses causing concern the comentary between verses is not mine but I left it in so you could understand the view causing concern.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" -Ex. 20:4​

God hates it and continues to command:

"Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD God hath forbidden thee." -Deut. 4:23​

God still hates it:

"Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; WHICH THE LORD THY GOD HATETH." -Deut. 16:22​

(b) The Bible tells us you have been "corrupted" and therefore are given to graven images:

"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female." -Deut. 4:15-16​

(c) God forbids the bowing down to statues, which is a common practice in the Catholic church. In the convent I spent many days saying novenas (which is a recitation of prayers and devotion for a special purpose during nine consecutive days), bowing down before a certain statue saying my rosary. The next time you bow down before a statue, remember the following:

"Thou shalt NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy am a jealous God..." -Ex. 20:5​

(d) Bowing down before statues will not awaken and nourish your faith in the mystery of Christ. Rather, behind every graven image is a devil:

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?...the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice TO DEVILS, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." -1 Cor. 10:19-20​

(e) God says to stay away from idols for your own good. Everytime you bow down to one, you bow to the kingdom of Satan. This is not a command which the Lord hath given and He despises the practice. He will not share His glory with graven images, Mary worship or "saint" worship.

"TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God." -Lev. 19:4​

Here are catacism questions and answers that defend the view point.
Bible Presbyterian Church WSC Project: Vincent's "The Shorter Catechism Explained from Scripture"

I cant recall if it was scripture or not, but I seem to recall we are not to have pictures of Christ because no one knows what he looks like and by taking a picture that man has created of him then we in turn have that imagine in our minds when we worship him. I know I have done this its natural you see some good looking guy playing Christ in a movie or a picture and it gets caught in your mind. If christ looks nothing like that though and would be unattaractive imagine how much it must grieve him that when we pray we have the wrong imagine of him in our minds!

The catacism above says this robs him of his deity. The scripture above says were not to make images of anything in heaven above.

Dont take it personally, and no its not escential doctrine.
Only something that prevents someones salvation or understanding who God really is, is consider escential. Everything else is interpretiontation.
Regardless what any church teaches, if you can read the scripture above and it cause you no concern or you dont feel you have done what it says then let it go if your concious says maybe I have then its time for you to look into it further. Keep in mind modern idols are not graven images so much as things like computers and anything that we love more than God or give to large unbalanced portion of our time to.

 

[mAlice]

"Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

 

[Starman3000m]

I am very surprised to hear this from you. Every single Bible Christian I have ever spoken has told me that, according to Scripture, it is idolatry for me to have the crucifix in my house, or a statue of the Lord (and in my case, the Blessed Virgin is also here). As a Catholic, I have defended the practice of having images to so many, trying to explain that it is simply a reminder, or a focal point, to no avail.
I do kneel down for prayer before a crucifix to keep myself focused on Jesus Christ, and I certainly do not confuse Him with the image on the wall. Again, quite speechless that you have said it is an acceptable practice as long as one's heart is where it should be, a point on which we completely agree.
So, I have a follow on question...is this something that Bible Christians do not consider "essential doctrine"? How can you and Italian Scallion be reading the same Bible and coming up with different interpretations for what is being said?

Hi libby,

I know we have some theological disagreements but I write this in love for you as a friend. The essential doctrine is placing total Faith in God's Plan of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Yeshua and then building a personal relationship with God through the power of His indwelling Holy Spirit. It is not "the church" or "the denomination" or "the good works" that bring about Salvation; it is by God's Grace:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9)

As I have stated before, only God knows the heart and mindset of each individual and knows where anyone is placing their focus of worship. If the focus of worship and reverence is on anything or anyone other than the True God of Creation, then it becomes idolatry no matter what. God is the one who knows the intent of each person and judges accordingly.

Also, as Yeshua stated (in John, Chapter 3) we are to be "born again" whereby it is the Holy Spirit of God that anoints and guides His Children into Truth and teaches the proper relationship of worshipping God alone.

Additionally, the indwelling power of God's Holy Spirit is what helps one understand the Truths of God:

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

Back to The Cross: I know many Bible believing (Protestant/Evangelical) Christians who wear a gold necklace/chain with a cross attached to it; no problem, they are not worshipping it and I realize that. There are many Evangelical/Protestant Christian churches that have a cross placed at the top of their church or in the church property; again, I see no problem; they are not worshipping the cross; it is there as a remembrance and profession of the faith they represent.

BTW: I also see many Protestant/Evangelical church members who gather at Christmas time to view a depiction of the Christ-child being held by Mary and surrounded by figures of Joseph, the three wise men and little animals in the stable. Is this idolatry, albeit it on a temporary period? No, it is a joyous remembrance because the church goers are not there to worship the scene of the Christ-Child's birth but to rejoice that Yeshua was born:

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (Luke 2:10-14)

So it is with the depiction of the "cross" libby. It is a symbolic remembrance only and should not be given any other quality of having any sort of "mystical power or charm" that favors the wearer.

Now, here is where you may take issue with what I am about to write:

In the case of Roman Catholicism: I agree with ItalianScallion as far as the church placing reverence in statues whereby the parishioners are expected to "kneel" at the feet of the statue. Also, when parishioners are expected to kiss the hand of a priest and kneel in reverence and call him "father" it also becomes a form of placing reverence upon a human rather than God. The term "Holy Father" should only be used in reference to God and no other person. That is why the position and power of the papacy is not scriptural even though the church claims it is by taking scripture out of context.

Here is what Yeshua said in regard to all religious leaders who expect and enjoy the formalities of "respect" which should only be given to God. Please read this carefully for the context of the message:

The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.(Matthew 23:2-10)

 

[libby]

Now, here is where you may take issue with what I am about to write:

In the case of Roman Catholicism: I agree with ItalianScallion as far as the church placing reverence in statues whereby the parishioners are expected to "kneel" at the feet of the statue. Also, when parishioners are expected to kiss the hand of a priest and kneel in reverence and call him "father" it also becomes a form of placing reverence upon a human rather than God. The term "Holy Father" should only be used in reference to God and no other person. That is why the position and power of the papacy is not scriptural even though the church claims it is by taking scripture out of context.


The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.(Matthew 23:2-10)

[/B]
Isn't it funny how you and I both accuse the other of "taking Scripture out of context".
There is no command that says Catholics have to kneel at any statues, nor at any persons, feet. Many Catholics love their priests, and the pope, as a spiritual father and there is no harm in that. He is not idolized, or mistaken for the Messiah any more than you mistake the Bible itself for the Savior. We are part of a family in Jesus, and we love members of that supernatural family as we love members of our natural family.
You really have your Scripture handy when it comes to condemning Catholic practices, yet you miss so much more that is actually being said.
In the same passage of Matthew Jesus tells us that we are not to call any man "rabbi" or "teacher" either. Yet Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11)
We do see Paul referring to himself as a spiritual father as well. "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
There are many other verses in which we see the familial relationship, and the Apostles speaking of the faithful as their "child(ren)".
"She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5:13).
Paul writes, "Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12:14); and, "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Gal. 4:19).
There are more, but you get the idea. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Bible does, indeed, allow for the spiritual relationship of father/child between priest/faithful.
We are called to be a family in Christ, and we are called to honor our father and mother. The affection that comes from this is natural and pleasing to God.
Spiritual apathy infects many people today, regardless of denominational affiliation. No doubt there are Catholics who have not been "born again", but there are many converts and reverts to the Catholic faith who have a passionate love for the Lord Jesus Christ.
There are certainly Bible Christians as well who content themselves with being "born again", or "once saved, always saved", the modern day equivalent of being content as "sons of Abraham".
Your previous post that acknowledges the heart, which only God knows, is that which will be our judgement.
But, there is Truth, and what it all comes down to is, can it be known definitively? I do not see that your theology provides for knowing Truth. To accept the idea that the Holy Spirit leads you into Truth negates any foundation you have for telling someone else that their path is wrong, as they can claim the same. This is in no way meant to suggest a lack of fervency or sincerity, it only addresses the shaky foundation such a theology (not to be confused with faith) is built on.

 

[Starman3000m]

Your previous post that acknowledges the heart, which only God knows, is that which will be our judgement.
But, there is Truth, and what it all comes down to is, can it be known definitively? I do not see that your theology provides for knowing Truth. To accept the idea that the Holy Spirit leads you into Truth negates any foundation you have for telling someone else that their path is wrong, as they can claim the same. This is in no way meant to suggest a lack of fervency or sincerity, it only addresses the shaky foundation such a theology (not to be confused with faith) is built on.

Yes, there is only One Truth to this whole matter libby. The Holy Bible is the instruction manual for establishing our personal relationship with God and it also calls for us to help one another in not falling away into false doctrines nor to be led away by false teachers. That is why we are to rely on the Holy Spirit of God to be our inner source of instruction when it comes to rightly dividing God's truth from man's error. (2 Timothy 2:15)

It is a well known fact that the Vatican regards the papacy as God's "exclusive spokesperson" on this earth and expects all devout members of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) to abide by his rulings. Pope John Paul II actually declared the RCC to be the only true religion and considered all other Christian/Evangelical denominations as being deficient in their faith.

The fact is that it is the Holy Spirit of God whose sole Authority and Annointing brings people to Salvation; it is not being a member of any specific church or religious denomination. It is the Spiritual Body of believers that establishes the Church on earth and encompasses those who are led by the Spirit of God through faith in Yeshua and not by the religious precepts of any man.

The pope and priests of the RCC are no closer to God than you or any other of the parishioners! It would also be safe to say that there are many parishioners that are closer to God in spiritual relationship than many priests! So then why do such priests expect reverence and servitude from parishioners? It is the RCC that has imposed fear upon the masses (no pun intended) to believe that seeking God outside of the Vatican-led Catholicism is heresy. Many people have been excommunicated from the RCC because of disagreements. So who then is right?

You cite where the Apostle Paul declares himself as a "spiritual father" in the faith but I don't believe he was ever addressed as "Father Paul" nor is it recorded that he ever asked people to call him "father."

I understand your rise to defend the RCC libby but all I am saying is that the Holy Bible speaks of a great apostasy and falling away from God's Truth and it is found of all places in organized religions who wield a stronghold over the congregants. These are the religions who have made God's House into a den of thieves and whose leaders praise God with their lips but their hearts are far from God. (Matthew 21:12-13) (Mark 7:5-9) (Luke 20:46-47)

 

[itsbob]

<img src='http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/blog/BLOGgifs/Easter2006/BoothEaster.gif'>

 

[libby]

Yes, there is only One Truth to this whole matter libby. The Holy Bible is the instruction manual for establishing our personal relationship with God and it also calls for us to help one another in not falling away into false doctrines nor to be led away by false teachers. That is why we are to rely on the Holy Spirit of God to be our inner source of instruction when it comes to rightly dividing God's truth from man's error. (2 Timothy 2:15)

It is a well known fact that the Vatican regards the papacy as God's "exclusive spokesperson" on this earth and expects all devout members of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) to abide by his rulings. Pope John Paul II actually declared the RCC to be the only true religion and considered all other Christian/Evangelical denominations as being deficient in their faith.

The fact is that it is the Holy Spirit of God whose sole Authority and Annointing brings people to Salvation; it is not being a member of any specific church or religious denomination. It is the Spiritual Body of believers that establishes the Church on earth and encompasses those who are led by the Spirit of God through faith in Yeshua and not by the religious precepts of any man.

The pope and priests of the RCC are no closer to God than you or any other of the parishioners! It would also be safe to say that there are many parishioners that are closer to God in spiritual relationship than many priests! So then why do such priests expect reverence and servitude from parishioners? It is the RCC that has imposed fear upon the masses (no pun intended) to believe that seeking God outside of the Vatican-led Catholicism is heresy. Many people have been excommunicated from the RCC because of disagreements. So who then is right?

You cite where the Apostle Paul declares himself as a "spiritual father" in the faith but I don't believe he was ever addressed as "Father Paul" nor is it recorded that he ever asked people to call him "father."

I understand your rise to defend the RCC libby but all I am saying is that the Holy Bible speaks of a great apostasy and falling away from God's Truth and it is found of all places in organized religions who wield a stronghold over the congregants. These are the religions who have made God's House into a den of thieves and whose leaders praise God with their lips but their hearts are far from God. (Matthew 21:12-13) (Mark 7:5-9) (Luke 20:46-47)

Why do you jump from one thing to the other in your effort to discuss Truth and faith? Why do you insist on mis-understanding and mis-representing Catholicism, her teachers and her doctrines?
I answered with Scripture your most recent allegations regarding the title of "father", and the best I get in return from you is, "I don't believe...". How is your personal belief relevant to this? Seems to me you should, at least, have the humility to acknowledge that there is a reasonable foundation for the Catholic practice, even if you still don't agree.
The rest of your response is simply attack. Nobody here, nor in the RCC heirarchy would say that the laity lack faith, wisdom and understanding.
As for a "great apostacy", I submit that the apostacy was the reformation, because Catholicism was all that there was before.

 

[residentofcre]

Today is about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Perfection of the Promise.....Libby....

If you serve my Living God... If you believe in Jesus as your Savior... put aside these bickerings over which of the Seven Churches you strive to defend.... Celebrate like David in loud voice, praising Him

Please understand that you have the right ot argue religion 364 days a year... and this year [a leap year] you have 365 days to argue it....

But today... it is about the Empty Tomb.... Amen

 

[libby]

Today is about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Perfection of the Promise.....Libby....

If you serve my Living God... If you believe in Jesus as your Savior... put aside these bickerings over which of the Seven Churches you strive to defend.... Celebrate like David in loud voice, praising Him

Please understand that you have the right ot argue religion 364 days a year... and this year [a leap year] you have 365 days to argue it....

But today... it is about the Empty Tomb.... Amen

A noble thought, RF, however I have made it my practice to clear up any mis-understandings and/or mis-representations of the Catholic Church. Some might think this is the one day to set aside bickering (although I try very hard not to bicker or accuse, and to keep to a discussion that uses Scripture, history and reason), others consider every day to be equally for the Glory of God.

 

[Starman3000m]

Today is about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Perfection of the Promise.....Libby....

If you serve my Living God... If you believe in Jesus as your Savior... put aside these bickerings over which of the Seven Churches you strive to defend.... Celebrate like David in loud voice, praising Him

Please understand that you have the right ot argue religion 364 days a year... and this year [a leap year] you have 365 days to argue it....

But today... it is about the Empty Tomb.... Amen

Amen.

 

[residentofcre]

A noble thought, RF, however I have made it my practice to clear up any mis-understandings and/or mis-representations of the Catholic Church. Some might think this is the one day to set aside bickering (although I try very hard not to bicker or accuse, and to keep to a discussion that uses Scripture, history and reason), others consider every day to be equally for the Glory of God.

Libby.... I give up... you're church must be more important to you than the Risen Savior....

That's my final comment... continue with your lamentations...

 

[libby]

Libby.... I give up... you're church must be more important to you than the Risen Savior....

That's my final comment... continue with your lamentations...

Wow!! I explain myself, and you feel justified saying Jesus Christ must not be too important to me.
Just...Wow!!

 

[toppick08]

Ladies.....let me give both of you a big

Happy Easter to you and your's

 

[libby]

Ladies.....let me give both of you a big

Happy Easter to you and your's

You're a good man.
Happy Easter to you, and I look forward to reading up on your thoughts later this week.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Typical anti-Christian cartoon

You, Bob, are truly ignorant of anything of the Spirit.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Wow!! I explain myself, and you feel justified saying Jesus Christ must not be too important to me.
Just...Wow!!

Sorry Libby, that is often the way I perceive you come across. Same goes for those on the other side of the argument. Jesus must be very upset with the way His people constantly bicker.

There is but one Church, it is not Baptist, Pentecostal, or Catholic. It is the body of Christ. We have our differences, but if we keep our hearts on Jesus, keep the Holy Spirit with in us, keep our bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit, all the rest becomes trivial.

 

[Starman3000m]

...There is but one Church, it is not Baptist, Pentecostal, or Catholic. It is the body of Christ. We have our differences, but if we keep our hearts on Jesus, keep the Holy Spirit with in us, keep our bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit, all the rest becomes trivial.

Amen!

 

[beerlover]

I thought the cross meant "addition". When my stepson was learning math in kindergarten he used to say "two bless two equals four".

 

[Starman3000m]

I thought the cross meant "addition". When my stepson was learning math in kindergarten he used to say "two bless two equals four".

Yes, it actually does mean addition! When you accept Yeshua as your personal Lord and Saviour you become added to the Family of God through adoption!

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:14-16)

God is willing that no one should perish and is always willing to add anyone to His Family - but it is a free-choice/free will decision one must make whether to be counted in and added as a Child of God.

 

[toppick08]

I thought the cross meant "addition". When my stepson was learning math in kindergarten he used to say "two bless two equals four".

The Cross will determine you ETERNAL place one day.............Think about it.