The Rapture was taught by early Church Fathers

C

Chuckt

Guest
The Rapture was taught by early Church Fathers.


Irenaeus, AD 170

Against Heresies 5.29 - When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, it is said, "There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be."
Tertullian, AD 207

Against Marcion 5.16 He [Paul] says those who remain unto the coming of Christ along with the dead in Christ, will rise first, being "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, "...By the mouth of Isaiah, it was said long ago "who are these who fly like clouds unto me, as doves with their young ones?"

Ancient Church Fathers (What the Disciples of the Apostles taught) by Ken Johnson Th.d.

See page 105.

So then I looked the quote up that didn't have a Bible verse attached and I found this:

Isaiah 60:8 Commentaries: "Who are these who fly like a cloud And like the doves to their lattices?

This book is one of the best defenses I have read on the rapture and there is a lot more evidence than I am quoting.
 

cheezgrits

Thought pirate
What if it's a clear day? What about the clouds then? Is the mysterious invisible god going to wait for a cloudy day? Or will he/she/it create clouds to have people fly up into?
 

seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
What a beautiful chapter..... Isiah 60:

Of course the original post got it wrong.... The verse about the clouds follows a verse about flocks of birds.

It's clouds of people.... here's the backup from GodVine.

In multitudes so numerous, that they appear as a dense cloud. The prophet, in vision, sees a vast multitude coming to Jerusalem, or hastening to embrace the true religion - so numerous as to excite surprise, and to lead to the question, Who can they be?

It's a beautiful description of what the day you get to meet Jesus in person..... or so my dad and I believe.

It's a shame that someone took it out of context.... but here's the chapter .... I underlined the discrepancy, but just take a couple of minutes and check out the beautiful description.

Isiah 60 Old Testament NIV
1 “Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.
2 See, darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the Lord rises upon you
and his glory appears over you.
3 Nations will come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

4 “Lift up your eyes and look about you:
All assemble and come to you;
your sons come from afar,
and your daughters are carried on the hip.
5 Then you will look and be radiant,
your heart will throb and swell with joy;
the wealth on the seas will be brought to you,
to you the riches of the nations will come.
6 Herds of camels will cover your land,
young camels of Midian and Ephah.
And all from Sheba will come,
bearing gold and incense
and proclaiming the praise of the Lord.
7 All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.
8 “Who are these that fly along like clouds,
like doves to their nests?

9 Surely the islands look to me;
in the lead are the ships of Tarshish,[a]
bringing your children from afar,
with their silver and gold,
to the honor of the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor.
10 “Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.
11 Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations—
their kings led in triumphal procession.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.
13 “The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
the juniper, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn my sanctuary;
and I will glorify the place for my feet.
14 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the Lord,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 “Although you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
and the joy of all generations.
16 You will drink the milk of nations
and be nursed at royal breasts.
Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
17 Instead of bronze I will bring you gold,
and silver in place of iron.
Instead of wood I will bring you bronze,
and iron in place of stones.
I will make peace your governor
and well-being your ruler.
18 No longer will violence be heard in your land,
nor ruin or destruction within your borders,
but you will call your walls Salvation
and your gates Praise.
19 The sun will no more be your light by day,
nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun will never set again,
and your moon will wane no more;
the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your days of sorrow will end.
21 Then all your people will be righteous
and they will possess the land forever.
They are the shoot I have planted,
the work of my hands,
for the display of my splendor.
22 The least of you will become a thousand,
the smallest a mighty nation.
I am the Lord;
in its time I will do this swiftly.

Beautiful.....

:coffee:
 
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C

Chuckt

Guest
What a beautiful chapter..... Isiah 60:

Of course the original post got it wrong.... The verse about the clouds follows a verse about flocks of birds.

Did you see the word "like" in there?

7 All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.
8 “Who are these that fly along like clouds,
like doves to their nests?

Anytime you see "like", it is probably a simile or a metaphor.

If you want to take the bible literally, is God a chicken?

Psalm 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

And we are made in the image of God so are we like Him? Do we resemble spirits like the holy spirit which is usually associated with a spirit like a dove descending on Jesus?

Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

There is no error.
 

cheezgrits

Thought pirate
Did you see the word "like" in there?



Anytime you see "like", it is probably a simile or a metaphor.

If you want to take the bible literally, is God a chicken?

Psalm 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

And we are made in the image of God so are we like Him? Do we resemble spirits like the holy spirit which is usually associated with a spirit like a dove descending on Jesus?

Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

There is no error.

You probably think Jesus was a long haired white dude too, don't you?

At least you finally answered my curiosity about you from before and now I know you do not take the bible literally.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
What a beautiful chapter..... Isiah 60:

Of course the original post got it wrong.... The verse about the clouds follows a verse about flocks of birds.

It's clouds of people.... here's the backup from GodVine.

In multitudes so numerous, that they appear as a dense cloud. The prophet, in vision, sees a vast multitude coming to Jerusalem, or hastening to embrace the true religion - so numerous as to excite surprise, and to lead to the question, Who can they be?

It's a beautiful description of what the day you get to meet Jesus in person..... or so my dad and I believe.

It's a shame that someone took it out of context.... but here's the chapter .... I underlined the discrepancy, but just take a couple of minutes and check out the beautiful description.

Out of context? Ha.

Verse 8-9
From the mainland, over which caravans and flocks are coming, the prophet now turns his eyes to the sea. “Who are these who fly hither as a cloud, and like the doves to their windows? Yea, the islands wait for me; and the ships of Tarshish come first, to bring thy children from far, their silver and gold with them, to the name of thy God, and to the holy One of Israel, because He hath ornamented thee.” Upon the sea there appear first of all enigmatical shapes, driving along as swiftly as if they were light clouds flying before the wind (Isaiah 19:1; Isaiah 45:22), or like doves flying to their dovecots (celeres cavis se turribus abdunt, as Ovid says), i.e., to the round towers with their numerous pigeon-holes, which are provided for their shelter. The question is addressed to Zion, and the answer may easily be anticipated - namely, that this swarm of swiftly flying figures are hurrying to a house which they long to reach, as much as pigeons do to reach their pigeon-house. The (kı̄) which follows is explanatory: this hurrying presents itself to thine eyes, because the isles wait for me. The reason for all this haste is to be found in the faith of those who are hurrying on. The Old Testament generally speaks of faith as hope (ל קוּה as in Isaiah 51:5; Isaiah 42:4); not that faith is the same as hope, but it is the support of hope, just as hope is the comfort of faith. In the Old Testament, when the true salvation existed only in promise, this epithet, for which there were many synonyms in the language, was the most appropriate one. The faith of the distant lands of the west is now beginning to work. The object of all this activity is expressed in the word להביא. The things thus flying along like clouds and doves are ships; with the Tartessus ships, which come from the farthest extremity of the European insular quarter of the globe, at their head (בּראשׁנה with munachinstead of metheg, in the same sense as in Numbers 10:14; lxx ἐν πρώτοις ; Jerome, in principio, in the foremost rank), i.e., acting as the leaders of the fleet which is sailing to Zion and bringing Zion's children from afar, and along with them the gold and silver of the owners of the vessels themselves, to the name (לשׁם, to the name, dative, not equivalent to למען; lxx διὰ , as in Isaiah 55:5) of thy God, whom they adore, and to the Holy One of Israel, because He hath ornamented thee, and thereby inspired them with reverence and love to thee (פארך for פארך, as in Isaiah 54:6, where it even stands out of pause).

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/kdo/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

Keil & Delitzsch were experts in the Old Testament Hebrew and what they see is a mass exodus. They quote Isaiah 19:1 where the Lord is riding on a swift cloud.

It is also interesting that windows or lattices can mean chimney or flood gates of heaven.

Luke 12:49 ¶ I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Isaiah 19:1 - The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

What you are looking at is revealed prophecy and I see bits and pieces of it because it wasn't meant to be fully revealed.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Delitzsch
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
You probably think Jesus was a long haired white dude too, don't you?

At least you finally answered my curiosity about you from before and now I know you do not take the bible literally.

Could you get any college credit on the Bible if all you knew was what was literal and wasn't literal? Could you pass a class on Biblical Hermeneutics if that was all you knew?
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
What a beautiful chapter..... Isiah 60:

Of course the original post got it wrong.... The verse about the clouds follows a verse about flocks of birds.

It's clouds of people.... here's the backup from GodVine.

In multitudes so numerous, that they appear as a dense cloud. The prophet, in vision, sees a vast multitude coming to Jerusalem, or hastening to embrace the true religion - so numerous as to excite surprise, and to lead to the question, Who can they be?

It's a beautiful description of what the day you get to meet Jesus in person..... or so my dad and I believe.

It's a shame that someone took it out of context.... but here's the chapter .... I underlined the discrepancy, but just take a couple of minutes and check out the beautiful description.


Verse 8-9
Isaiah 60:8-9. Who are these that fly? &c.— Vitringa understands by this new crowd of believers hastening to the church, the Greeks and Asiatics, and those of the west, groaning under the Ottoman empire, who, having long sat in a state of ignorance and superstition, at this period shall be freed from their yoke, and hasten to the enlightened church in multitudes like a cloud, and with zeal and impetuosity, like doves to their cotes or holes, when once made acquainted with the wonderful change of things and the mighty works wrought by God for the deliverance of his people. The flight of doves, especially when they return to their cotes, is remarkably swift and precipitate, as Bochart has observed. Hieroz. pars ii. lib. i. c. 2. See also Hosea 11:11 and Vitringa. Instead of unto the name, and to the Holy One, &c. Isaiah 60:9. Bishop Lowth reads, because of the name of JEHOVAH thy God, and of the Holy One of Israel, &c

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/tcc/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible (John Wesley's right hand man on the Bible)

It is not uncommon to compare a multitude of persons to a cloud. Thus Livy (xxxv. 49), Rex contra peditum equitumque nubes jactat. Thus in Hebrews 12:1, the number of witnesses who are said to encompass Christians is compared to a cloud ( νέφος μαρτύρων nephos marturōn ). So Virgil (Geor. iv. 60) compares a swarm of bees to a cloud - obscuramque trahi vento mirabere nubem. The Chaldee understands this of swift clouds, and takes the point of the comparison to be the velocity with which they would come. ‹Who are these that come publicly (בגלי bigelay ) as swift clouds?‘ But the comparison relates probably to the number, rather than to the swiftness with which they would come. Converts would be multiplied in such numbers, that they would seem to be like dense clouds making their way to Zion.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

Albert Barnes didn't fully understand but he knew the reference was about a multitude of people and he alludes to the rapture though he didn't understand it.

Verse 8
Isaiah 60:8. Who are these that fly as a cloud — These metaphors import the number, as well as speed, of those that should be begotten by the apostles’ doctrine. “By this new crowd of believers hastening to the church,” Vitringa understands “the Greeks and Asiatics, and those of the west groaning under the Ottoman empire, who, having long sat in a state of ignorance and superstition, at this period shall be freed from their yoke, and hasten to the enlightened church in multitudes, like a cloud, and with zeal and impetuosity, (like doves to their cotes or holes,) when once made acquainted with the wonderful change of things, and the mighty works wrought by God for the deliverance of his people. The flight of doves, especially when they return to their cotes, is remarkably swift and precipitate.”

Joseph Benson notes that they are a reference to the church.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rbc/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

Verse 8
The prophet, seeing in vision new hosts approaching quickly like a cloud of doves, asks who they are.

Jamieson Fausset and Brown see them as a host.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/jfb/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

making as it were one cloud, and that openly and publicly, professing Christ, and joining themselves to his church, in the face of the world; and so the Targum,

"who are these that come publicly as the swift clouds?'

and chiefly are they compared to a cloud for their swiftness in motion to Christ and his church; sinners; sensible of danger from the avenging justice of God, from his law, and from his wrath and displeasure, and eternal death, and being apprized of salvation and safety in Christ, make haste and flee to him as swiftly as a cloud driven by the winds;

and as the doves to their windows; or "dove houses", or "lockers and holes"F3;

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/geb/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

This verse from the Targum reminds me of John 14:2

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

It is literally "dwelling places" and fits with Gill's "lockers and holes".

Verse 8-9
Reader! pause, I pray you over these sweet verses. Can there be a more delightful thought, than that of souls flying to Christ, as doves, who by instinct take shelter in their houses? Mark what Jesus said, John 12:32; and do not overlook how the glory of Jehovah in covenant, as God, is folded up in the blessed relation. Yes! Christ's glory is his Father's honour; and it is the most blessed of all thoughts that God the Father is glorified in his dear Son, in the instance of every individual soul redeemed; John 13:31-32.

Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/pmc/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

Verse 8
Clouds. They are thy children, accompanied by strangers.

George Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hcc/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

v. 8. Who are these that fly as a cloud? so the prophet asks in directing the eyes of the Church to the West, and as the doves to their windows? the mass of people seeking the Lord's Sanctuary being represented as an almost numberless multitude.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/kpc/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

The Popular Commentary by Paul E. Kretzmann

Verse 8
In the 4th verse he spake to them as upon some high watch tower, whereby they might behold as in a circle all the parts of the world. Now espying from all parts, he brings them in calling out with admiration,

Who are these? partly with reference to the number, or partly with reference to the persons; so the Heb. What are these? they being not Jews, but strangers, and so directly intimating the Gentiles flocking into the church, that come so swiftly, and in so great flocks: the same thing still. The former metaphor of clouds imports their number as well as their speed, Ezekiel 38:9: thus abundance of witnesses is called a cloud of witnesses, Hebrews 12:1: the scope is to note the great confluence of people that should come into the church, that should be begotten by the apostles’ doctrine; which the LXX. translation seems to point at, who render it as doves with their young ones unto me; and by flying may be noted their spiritual state, being elevated above the world, . as the clouds above the earth, and doves when upon the wing.

Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mpc/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

The clouds are supposed to be driven by the wind to one point, and the doves hasten with speed to their home.
Preacher's Complete Homiletical Commentary
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/phc/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

Verse 8
Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
fly
4; 45:22; Luke 13:29; Revelation 7:9
a cloud
Hebrews 12:1
as the
Genesis 8:8-11

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/tsk/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

Verse 8
A cloud - These metaphors import the number as well as speed, of those that should be begotten by the apostles doctrine.

Wesley's Explanatory Notes
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/wen/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=60

None of these commentaries get lost on the flock of birds. Most of them are explaining the Bible into their own background or understanding of the Bible.

I haven't even touched many of the books on my bookshelves.
 

seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
There is no error.

Spreading that feces again are you?

I would suggest that you pray that the Spirit will open you heart. Then read the chapter. You'll see that plucking that one verse out of that beautiful description is an error.

Isiah was a prophet. God gave him the words and he wrote them down. Put you books back on the shelf, say a prayer, and let God tell you what He meant.

One more thing, quoting the books on your bookshelf doesn't mean much to anyone but you. People need to see the passages you are quoting to make sure you are doing it correctly. There is a lot of misinformation out there. You say the wrong thing and you could be held responsible for someone being led astray. That's a horrible thing to have to answer up for.

:coffee:
 
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seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
Could you get any college credit on the Bible if all you knew was what was literal and wasn't literal? Could you pass a class on Biblical Hermeneutics if that was all you knew?

Be careful chuck...

A few years ago a preacher's kid told my daughter that she couldn't be a Christian because she didn't spend so many hours a day studying the Bible. This little girl caused my daughter a lot of heartache. She questioned her own salvation because the PK told her that.

You don't have to have a college degree to understand the Word of God. The Holy Spirit will decipher it for you. All you have to do is ask.

:coffee:
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
Be careful chuck...

A few years ago a preacher's kid told my daughter that she couldn't be a Christian because she didn't spend so many hours a day studying the Bible. This little girl caused my daughter a lot of heartache. She questioned her own salvation because the PK told her that.

You don't have to have a college degree to understand the Word of God. The Holy Spirit will decipher it for you. All you have to do is ask.

:coffee:

Who said anything about being a Christian? You are changing the subject.

The truth is that you can't go on the mission field today with mission organizations without having some form of Biblical education. Who is going to pay someone to be ineffective? And what are you going to teach someone? Do you think some church is going to pay someone to figure out their theology on the mission field? They even do a psychological exam on people going into the mission field.

So lets figure out if what you say is true.

Many of Jesus' disciples fell back and did not walk anymore with Jesus. Why is that? Were they dependent on His word?

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

The disciples that stayed with Jesus were dependent on His word and they were His disciples. Did Jesus stay with those who weren't with His word?

John 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

You have to show yourself approved to God because if you have fellowship with Him in His word, He fellowships with you.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If you don't care about it the light that He gives you then it can be taken away.

Luke 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

And the devil will take away what you've learned unless you guard it:

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

What happened to those disciples that walked away from Jesus? God isn't recording doing anything for them and those were the people not dependent on Him or His word. God put His power in the words so if you don't learn them then you can't understand His power because it comes from illumination from having studied and you have nothing to draw from.

The other point is that the seer in the Bible stopped and became a prophet and John was the last of the prophets. Dunamous power was what we saw in the gospels and exousia is the power that we see in the book of Acts. The dunamous power of God was God's Holy right and that was given to the apostles and prophets but you, if you are a Christian, are left with exousia which is just power of the Holy Spirit working through people so if you're ability is small then that is what God has to work with.

Acts 5:12 ¶ And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

The apostle's message was wrought with signs so that there wouldn't be any dispute that the message was from God so if God just gave anybody supernatural power today then a dishonest person could start writing scripture and claim authority above what God's true message of the gospel is which is why the power you think is available isn't.
 

seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
Who said anything about being a Christian? You are changing the subject.

The truth is that you can't go on the mission field today with mission organizations without having some form of Biblical education. Who is going to pay someone to be ineffective? And what are you going to teach someone? Do you think some church is going to pay someone to figure out their theology on the mission field? They even do a psychological exam on people going into the mission field.

So lets figure out if what you say is true.

Many of Jesus' disciples fell back and did not walk anymore with Jesus. Why is that? Were they dependent on His word?

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

The disciples that stayed with Jesus were dependent on His word and they were His disciples. Did Jesus stay with those who weren't with His word?

John 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

You have to show yourself approved to God because if you have fellowship with Him in His word, He fellowships with you.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If you don't care about it the light that He gives you then it can be taken away.

Luke 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

And the devil will take away what you've learned unless you guard it:

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

What happened to those disciples that walked away from Jesus? God isn't recording doing anything for them and those were the people not dependent on Him or His word. God put His power in the words so if you don't learn them then you can't understand His power because it comes from illumination from having studied and you have nothing to draw from.

The other point is that the seer in the Bible stopped and became a prophet and John was the last of the prophets. Dunamous power was what we saw in the gospels and exousia is the power that we see in the book of Acts. The dunamous power of God was God's Holy right and that was given to the apostles and prophets but you, if you are a Christian, are left with exousia which is just power of the Holy Spirit working through people so if you're ability is small then that is what God has to work with.

Acts 5:12 ¶ And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

The apostle's message was wrought with signs so that there wouldn't be any dispute that the message was from God so if God just gave anybody supernatural power today then a dishonest person could start writing scripture and claim authority above what God's true message of the gospel is which is why the power you think is available isn't.

So who put the restriction on those going in the mission field? Should I stop putting up the daily verse because I didn't go to Seminary? Should I have never taught Sunday School, or Children's Church because I didn't go to Seminary?

So what you are telling me [in your usual long winded speech] is I should never depend on the Holy Spirit? Where did those people in the Bible get their Seminary training?

:coffee:
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
So who put the restriction on those going in the mission field? Should I stop putting up the daily verse because I didn't go to Seminary? Should I have never taught Sunday School, or Children's Church because I didn't go to Seminary?

So what you are telling me [in your usual long winded speech] is I should never depend on the Holy Spirit? Where did those people in the Bible get their Seminary training?

:coffee:

Who posed the restriction? It is a leadership decision between the missionary organization that sends and the Churches that fund missionaries and most people aren't going to fund someone who wants to go to another country for a holiday.

Why would they post a restriction? Because the person is functioning in a pastoral ministry whether they understand it or not so rules from the pastoral epistles also applies.

The question I pose is for the average person sitting in the pews.

Do you want someone trained by someone who was trained by someone who was trained?
Do you want someone teaching you that doesn't know Jesus?
There are also false teachers in the church and they are teaching people.

Jude 3 says to contend for the faith. "Contend" means to fight in any dictionary you find the meaning in. And I've been taught the wrong things from pastors and I've been taught the wrong things from the pulpit. People make mistakes and error creeps in.

In the church context, you wouldn't know or a person who never read the Bible before what the pastor was saying is right and they wouldn't know either unless they were from a Biblical seminary. The pastor is supposed to be taught by someone who was taught. The difference is that they need to be grounded and teaching from precepts that are grounded instead of teaching their own ideas. The danger is the person who teaches and has no structure or formal training. The best Churches in the world have an exegetical and systematic teaching style of the Bible where they teach verse by verse through the Bible.

I'll use myself as an example. I learned some things about the Bible which are not true. I shared them with many Christians and they all bought into different teachings. It wasn't until I came into contact with Christians who had been to seminary that I learned the teachings were contrived.

I want to point out to people that I believe the Apostle Paul held classes because it was in a school setting:

“..he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the *SCHOOL* of one Tyrannus. And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 19:9b-10)

My wife is also a former school teacher and says that teaching is not just presenting a bunch of facts but how to present them in an order so that people want to learn.

English Standard Version
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

http://biblehub.com/james/3-1.htm
 
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seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
Who posed the restriction? It is a leadership decision between the missionary organization that sends and the Churches that fund missionaries and most people aren't going to fund someone who wants to go to another country for a holiday.

Why would they post a restriction? Because the person is functioning in a pastoral ministry whether they understand it or not so rules from the pastoral epistles also applies.

The question I pose is for the average person sitting in the pews.

Do you want someone trained by someone who was trained by someone who was trained?
Do you want someone teaching you that doesn't know Jesus?
There are also false teachers in the church and they are teaching people.

Jude 3 says to contend for the faith. "Contend" means to fight in any dictionary you find the meaning in. And I've been taught the wrong things from pastors and I've been taught the wrong things from the pulpit. People make mistakes and error creeps in.

In the church context, you wouldn't know or a person who never read the Bible before what the pastor was saying is right and they wouldn't know either unless they were from a Biblical seminary. The pastor is supposed to be taught by someone who was taught. The difference is that they need to be grounded and teaching from precepts that are grounded instead of teaching their own ideas. The danger is the person who teaches and has no structure or formal training. The best Churches in the world have an exegetical and systematic teaching style of the Bible where they teach verse by verse through the Bible.

I'll use myself as an example. I learned some things about the Bible which are not true. I shared them with many Christians and they all bought into different teachings. It wasn't until I came into contact with Christians who had been to seminary that I learned the teachings were contrived.

I want to point out to people that I believe the Apostle Paul held classes because it was in a school setting:

“..he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the *SCHOOL* of one Tyrannus. And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 19:9b-10)

My wife is also a former school teacher and says that teaching is not just presenting a bunch of facts but how to present them in an order so that people want to learn.

English Standard Version
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

http://biblehub.com/james/3-1.htm

So it's self imposed by the missions.... and if we don't expect to be paid.... it's ok....

Good.... I'd hate to think I was breaking one of the Biblical laws....

I GUESS I SHOULD JUST STOP POSTING ALL TOGETHER SINCE I'M NOT SEMINARY TRAINED.....

:coffee:
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
So it's self imposed by the missions.... and if we don't expect to be paid.... it's ok....

Good.... I'd hate to think I was breaking one of the Biblical laws....

I GUESS I SHOULD JUST STOP POSTING ALL TOGETHER SINCE I'M NOT SEMINARY TRAINED.....

:coffee:

I guess you have to be careful in how you read what I'm about to say but..
Woe to them that are called who don't come and woe to them that come and are not called.

I felt called and I do this not because I want to be in front of other people. Don't get me wrong because I do enjoy what I do but I felt called and I see a more urgent need because of what people were doing to the church back then and what they are doing today. I thought someone else would stand up and they have and now it is my turn.

English Standard Version
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

http://biblehub.com/james/3-1.htm

If you teach, you will be judged greater.

King James Bible
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
http://biblehub.com/matthew/12-36.htm

You will be judged on what you say or write, I'm sure of it.
 

cheezgrits

Thought pirate
Could you get any college credit on the Bible if all you knew was what was literal and wasn't literal? Could you pass a class on Biblical Hermeneutics if that was all you knew?

Boastful? Isn't that a sin? Pride, one of the 7 deadly ones, if I recall my bible correctly. But, please, I'm sure god is impressed with college degrees.
 

cheezgrits

Thought pirate
I guess you have to be careful in how you read what I'm about to say but..
Woe to them that are called who don't come and woe to them that come and are not called.

I felt called and I do this not because I want to be in front of other people. Don't get me wrong because I do enjoy what I do but I felt called and I see a more urgent need because of what people were doing to the church back then and what they are doing today. I thought someone else would stand up and they have and now it is my turn.

English Standard Version
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

http://biblehub.com/james/3-1.htm

If you teach, you will be judged greater.

King James Bible
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
http://biblehub.com/matthew/12-36.htm

You will be judged on what you say or write, I'm sure of it.

Yep, god put asshats on this earth and you were called and answered, in spades. Nicely done! You shall surely receive your reward one day.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
Boastful? Isn't that a sin? Pride, one of the 7 deadly ones, if I recall my bible correctly. But, please, I'm sure god is impressed with college degrees.

No. There are two types of pride and you only know of the bad kind and it doesn't apply because we are allowed to boast in the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:31).

If you started out making minimum wage and were to buy commentaries and other academic books, how many years would it take you to look up the definition of every Greek and Hebrew word and comment on every verse of the Bible showing that you have studied it? And you think that you would have an easier time than someone who went to college and does it? College professors aren't impressed with what I did with the Bible because they say that nothing replaces class time and learning from others. Seminary students are going to have an easier time with the Bible and someone in college is going to be pushed to learn more because they are being forced to write papers and research (look a lot of stuff up).

My friend who ran a Christian college says,“Tell (them) that the Holy Spirit does not work with nothing. If one has not learned something, the Holy Spirit has nothing to work with to be effective. You need to point out to (them) that every writer of the Bible read books. Moses had the equivalent of an advanced doctoral degree. David was a prolific author who was very much aware of his times. Solomon received a better education than David, and wrote over a thousand books himself. Each of the prophets was able to read not only the Law, but also the commentaries on the law by authors from around the known world -- even as far away as India and China - with most of the books found at the Library at Alexandria (Egypt) before it was burned to the ground by heathens. The Bible that the apostles used, the Septuagint, was written there. Matthew was a tax collector who not only understood Aramaic/Hebrew, but also Latin and Greek, too. The same with Mark and John with respect to education. Luke had a doctoral degree in medicine, but through his writings we can see a tremendous influence of learning from other cultures. Paul told Timothy to bring the books along with the parchments.”-quoting my friend who ran a Christian College

I think the College President is refering to John 14:26 which (interpreted) says,"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

So yeah, God can use everyone but someone willing to put more time in is going to be a greater instrument for God to use than someone who doesn't want to be used.
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
someone willing to put more time in is going to be a greater instrument for God to use than someone who doesn't want to be used.

1. I'd like B23 to comment on the above assertion given his place of worship doesn't have a pastor--inspired individuals with something to say can do so. I doubt any have degrees from seminary

2. As a Catholic, I could not disagree with you more. Some of the most holy, God-like people (saints) were poor, uneducated, and in some case teenagers.

Man up. Post YOUR credentials. No PII can be obtained by you simply posting the degree and conferring institution. If it's an online diploma mill, don't bother.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
1. I'd like B23 to comment on the above assertion given his place of worship doesn't have a pastor--inspired individuals with something to say can do so. I doubt any have degrees from seminary

2. As a Catholic, I could not disagree with you more. Some of the most holy, God-like people (saints) were poor, uneducated, and in some case teenagers.

Man up. Post YOUR credentials. No PII can be obtained by you simply posting the degree and conferring institution. If it's an online diploma mill, don't bother.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I went to a Catholic Bible study before and I took notes and learned the Friar's system of interpretation and after about half an hour or forty minutes, I came up with a response debunking his system of interpretation.

King James Bible
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/24-4.htm

In order to not be deceived, you have need information to discern and sometimes much learning. Being sincere doesn't keep people out of trouble. I'm sure Eve was sincere and very holy because she learned in a perfect environment but she was deceived.
 
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