This Is Scary Stuff

[vraiblonde]

So many excellent, non-idiotic points from this forum’s genius, non-idiot master.

While I completely agree with you — and TP and all other like minded non-idiots — on these points, just to play devil’s advocate, if I may...

1) Sheeple who buy into this would likely point out that referring to this virus as a “con” clearly questions the severity of the virus. I don’t know too many of these brain dead sheeple who claim we deplorable question it’s existence.

2) these sheeple would also bring up what happened in Italy a few months back as well as recent and ongoing spikes in cases and rising death rates in our own country. They would do this to point out that comparing this virus and it’s impact to the flu is idiotic (well, again, in these dumb sheeple’s view).

3) these sheeple would point out that the severity and difficulty in responding to this pandemic would be present and acknowledged no matter who was in office (they might even bring up their support of our own republican governor’s handling of Covid, demonstrating that responding to a pandemic is not political).

4) they would also point out that while sensationalized and left-leaning news stories will of course focus on emotional cases, death tolls and trump’s incoherent strategies / communications, that this does not address the point that responding to and managing this pandemic is challenging and needed. Declaring it to be “a non issue” or a “con” is irresponsible, they would say.

5) These sheeple would also point out the many many examples of the GOP being ones to simultaneously politicize this pandemic and bitch and moan that it’s being politicized (honest sheeple would concede that members of the Democratic Party similarly politicize this, too).

6) in short they would provide arguments and evidence indicating that your response above is an embarrassing, idiotic straw man.

But that’s those stupid sheeple! I’m with you Vrai, team “not idiot/let the virus spread as rapidly as we can because it’s no more dangerous than the flu!”

Honestly, I don't really care what you do. Saran wrap your house for all I care. I know what I see on a daily basis, and I know that people die every day in this country and always have. If you want to believe that nobody ever died until COVID came along, you go right ahead.

#3, in particular, is laughable because there are few Governors who've used COVID to further their own power like Larry Hogan has. I'm not a Republican, so I don't have to stick up for him and I can call him what he is.

 

[AnthonyJames]

So many excellent, non-idiotic points from this forum’s genius, non-idiot master.

While I completely agree with you — and TP and all other like minded non-idiots — on these points, just to play devil’s advocate, if I may...

1) Sheeple who buy into this would likely point out that referring to this virus as a “con” clearly questions the severity of the virus. I don’t know too many of these brain dead sheeple who claim we deplorable question it’s existence.

2) these sheeple would also bring up what happened in Italy a few months back as well as recent and ongoing spikes in cases and rising death rates in our own country. They would do this to point out that comparing this virus and it’s impact to the flu is idiotic (well, again, in these dumb sheeple’s view).

3) these sheeple would point out that the severity and difficulty in responding to this pandemic would be present and acknowledged no matter who was in office (they might even bring up their support of our own republican governor’s handling of Covid, demonstrating that responding to a pandemic is not political).

4) they would also point out that while sensationalized and left-leaning news stories will of course focus on emotional cases, death tolls and trump’s incoherent strategies / communications, that this does not address the point that responding to and managing this pandemic is challenging and needed. Declaring it to be “a non issue” or a “con” is irresponsible, they would say.

5) These sheeple would also point out the many many examples of the GOP being ones to simultaneously politicize this pandemic and bitch and moan that it’s being politicized (honest sheeple would concede that members of the Democratic Party similarly politicize this, too).

6) in short they would provide arguments and evidence indicating that your response above is an embarrassing, idiotic straw man.

But that’s those stupid sheeple! I’m with you Vrai, team “not idiot/let the virus spread as rapidly as we can because it’s no more dangerous than the flu!”

If I may...

Put a cork in it.

TIA

 

[Jurgo]

If I may ...

If you want to believe that nobody ever died until COVID came along, you go right ahead.

I say this as an enthusiastic member of “team vrai,” keep in mind.

the stupid sheeple can get us on statements like this. If indeed Covid were only as serious as other illnesses and more common causes of death, then why are hospitals in “hot spots” filling up and overflowing? Why did Italy undergo the catastrophic events it suffered in March or April?

These exceedingly simple, obvious, immediate facts invalidate the dismissive claims and comparisons we non-idiots tend to make.

 

[Jurgo]

If I may...

Put a cork in it.

TIA

Please refrain from the use of such profanity. Thank you.

 

[Jurgo]

#3, in particular, is laughable because there are few Governors who've used COVID to further their own power like Larry Hogan has. I'm not a Republican, so I don't have to stick up for him and I can call him what he is.

I sincerely don’t doubt that Hogan has attempted and is still attempting to use his Covid response policies to his political gain. No qualms from me or actual sheeple there.

However, my point was that liberals in our state have (from what I’ve seen) expressed sincere support of Hogan’s response policies, despite hating the governor’s politics or even the governor as a person. This is but one small piece of evidence that responding to this pandemic and treating it as a serious concern is not politically motivated.

I mean, I’m. You’re right. Those libtard sheeple need to shut their dumb lazy faces.

 

[vraiblonde]

then why are hospitals in “hot spots” filling up and overflowing?

Hospitals in dystopian shitholes are always full. That's nothing new.

Go to your local hospital you'll see that they are operating normally and at normal capacity.

Why did Italy undergo the catastrophic events it suffered in March or April?

What does that have to do with us? Is Trump their President, too?

 

[Jurgo]

Hospitals in dystopian shitholes are always full. That's nothing new.

Go to your local hospital you'll see that they are operating normally and at normal capacity.



What does that have to do with us? Is Trump their President, too?

Hospitals in Houston and California are/were during moments of recent spikes at or beyond capacity and this is unusual for them. I am pointing this out so that you do not give the sheeple any fodder for their libtard views! Seriously, this is a flawed argument.

However strained particular hospitals usually are, hospitals in hotspots are overwhelmed more than usual. Covid is the cause of this and the sheeple are right in wanting to avoid this outcome.

I mentioned Italy because their hospitals were so overrun during their spikes. This reality indicates why and how Covid is different than other health issues and causes of death. Does that make sense?

 

[vraiblonde]

However, my point was that liberals in our state have (from what I’ve seen) expressed sincere support of Hogan’s response policies

That tells me all I need to know about him. And PS, liberals don't "hate" him or he wouldn't be there. DEMOCRATS elected Hogan. If it were just Republicans, he'd have gotten 33% of the vote and been summarily trounced. Clearly the Left doesn't hate him at all.

You’re right.

I'm always right.

 

[vraiblonde]

hospitals in hotspots are overwhelmed more than usual.

What makes you think that? And what "hotspots" are you referring to?

Hell, NYC was so "overwhelmed" that they didn't even use the facilities Trump sent them. Maryland is so overwhelmed that Larry Hogan had to pay double for Korean test kits that he could have gotten right here in the US.

Is that what you're talking about?

 

[Jurgo]

That tells me all I need to know about him. And PS, liberals don't "hate" him or he wouldn't be there. DEMOCRATS elected Hogan. If it were just Republicans, he'd have gotten 33% of the vote and been summarily trounced. Clearly the Left doesn't hate him at all.



I'm always right.

It is a fair point that Hogan could only win in MD with support of democrats, indicating that he is or has to be a more centrist republican.

Still, liberals prefer liberals and if their concerns for Covid were purely politically motivated they would also be using it to take out republicans like Hogan, too (even if they can tolerate him).

 

[Jurgo]

What makes you think that? And what "hotspots" are you referring to?

Hell, NYC was so "overwhelmed" that they didn't even use the facilities Trump sent them. Maryland is so overwhelmed that Larry Hogan had to pay double for Korean test kits that he could have gotten right here in the US.

Is that what you're talking about?

Seriously? As a loving vrai supporter and fellow non-idiot I am astonished you are questioning this. Arguing against this makes us look bad, but ok.

Google “Houston hospitals at capacity” like I did to get hits from recent weeks when their numbers were spiking.

Here you go: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...rus-hospitals-houston-san-antonio-austin/amp/

The standard flu does not cause the concern expressed in the above article.

You will easily find very similar and uncontested results in all of the hotspot zones. It is a very simple idea vrai, one that we non-idiots should not deny. And it is this: Covid is dangerous because of how rapidly it spreads and how quickly it can overwhelm our healthcare systems. That’s it.

 

[Sneakers]

"Available capacity" of an ER or ICU is a flexible number. In times of low usage, parts of an ICU get shut down, reducing the number of available beds. You have any kind of major incident, and all of a sudden the ICU is at 99%. Not because they don't have the capacity, but because they had scaled back and the numbers reflect current beds, not total beds. There are many articles out there that show ERs and ICUs work in the 90-95% end of capacity all of the time. Anything less and the hospital isn't profitable.

 

[Jurgo]

"Available capacity" of an ER or ICU is a flexible number. In times of low usage, parts of an ICU get shut down, reducing the number of available beds. You have any kind of major incident, and all of a sudden the ICU is at 99%. Not because they don't have the capacity, but because they had scaled back and the numbers reflect current beds, not total beds. There are many articles out there that show ERs and ICUs work in the 90-95% end of capacity all of the time. Anything less and the hospital isn't profitable.

I am unfamiliar with the claim that ERs and ICUs usually work at that level of capacity. I will gladly look into this. However, do you dispute that when and where this virus spikes that local hospitals and medical professionals express concern over being overwhelmed? This concern does not happen with the common flu.

Edit: just googled “typical capacity for ICUs” and found this research from 2013 (well before Covid concerns) that states “ Over the three years studied, total ICU occupancy ranged from 57.4% to 82.1% and the number of beds filled with mechanically ventilated patients ranged from 20.7% to 38.9%.”

 

[vraiblonde]

Covid is dangerous because of how rapidly it spreads and how quickly it can overwhelm our healthcare systems. That’s it.

If that were true, the non-mask wearing wide open places I've been in since March - that were filled with travelers, no less - would be decimated.

But they're not.

How do you explain that?

Branson is even filled with older people out eating and drinking and enjoying the various entertainment venues without masks or any precautions. How do you explain the lack of illness here?

Are people dropping like flies in your town? How many people do you know personally who've gotten sick or died? Because if this virus spreads so rapidly, surely almost everyone you know is sick with it, right?

 

[Sneakers]

This concern does not happen with the common flu.

You only think this because the news doesn't report it.

I know first hand of ICUs reducing capacity. Had to take my mom to the ER with a stay in the ICU more times than I care to talk about. When you know the names of the nurses on each shift, you're there too much. One time 4 wings would be in operation, the next 2 wings, with the other 2 closed off. When I inquired, I was told it was common practice to shut down unnecessary wings for efficiency.

 

[Jurgo]

If that were true, the non-mask wearing wide open places I've been in since March - that were filled with travelers, no less - would be decimated.

But they're not.

How do you explain that?

How do you explain the lack of illness?

These questions are relevant to this kind of discussion but they sincerely miss the point. Honestly, I’m not trying to “dunk on you” with this (again I agree with you generally and want to bolster your arguments).

It is not clear to those studying this virus (let alone to non medical folks like you and me) how or why it flares up in certain places but not in others. Likely factors have been identified, but it’s still being understood.

Rather than focus on “why haven’t these places been decimated?” questions, it is more reasonable to ask “why were these other places hit so hard and what can we do to avoid that outcome?”

So some important starting points.

1) do you agree that places over these past six months have been hit hard with Covid cases?

2) do you agree / accept that these places have healthcare systems that were overwhelmed and/or were on the verge of having their systems overwhelmed?

Assuming you are reasonable and you say “yes” to 1) and 2), then you would be interested to know that since medical professionals and scientists began studying why or how these happened and how to prevent it, they learned that this virus is very easy to spread in part because many carriers can be asymptomatic for a period while infected and even remain asymptomatic throughout the entire infection.

This information goes directly to your “point,” supplying a plausible explanation: people interacting normally may have been spreading it and unaware. It may appear to you that the virus is not infecting people, but in many cases it likely is.

And this now shifts is to this natural question: if so many people are asymptomatic (or only suffer mild symptoms), why are we making such a big deal out of it? And what happened in Italy, what is happening in hotspots right now answers this: the virus spreads easily, working it’s way through folks who exhibit no symptoms or who experience delayed symptoms (perhaps like many of the people you described), all along the way infecting people who do develop serious symptoms. The more this happens the more people develop serious symptoms the more care and beds they need.

You don’t need to make this that hard.

Covid is dangerous because it can easily spread. The people it ends up impacting seriously clog up hospitals all at once making this a disaster. I know you get this. Because, again, you’re not an idiot.

 

[vraiblonde]

Remember over Memorial Day when the newsbots were showing all those people at Lake of the Ozarks, and they gasped and railed calling it COVID soup?

How come all those people didn't die?

How is it that protesters are immune?

Weren't all the people at the Tulsa Trump rally supposed to drop like flies? Why didn't that happen?

I am legit asking you @Jurgo , as a non-idiot, to explain this phenomenon to me.

 

[Jurgo]

You only think this because the news doesn't report it.

I know first hand of ICUs reducing capacity. Had to take my mom to the ER with a stay in the ICU more times than I care to talk about. When you know the names of the nurses on each shift, you're there too much. One time 4 wings would be in operation, the next 2 wings, with the other 2 closed off. When I inquired, I was told it was common practice to shut down unnecessary wings for efficiency.

Wait doesn’t the shut down wings speak to the point that they regularly or periodically are not at full capacity? It sounds like the ER/ICU you spent lots of time at had hectic or chaotic capacity levels, not predictably or consistently high ones.

 

[Jurgo]

Remember over Memorial Day when the newsbots were showing all those people at Lake of the Ozarks, and they gasped and railed calling it COVID soup?

How come all those people didn't die?

How is it that protesters are immune?

Weren't all the people at the Tulsa Trump rally supposed to drop like flies? Why didn't that happen?

I am legit asking you @Jurgo , as a non-idiot, to explain this phenomenon to me.

Honestly happy to talk about these specific questions, but I want to let you read through my other response first to see if it addresses these questions too.

 

[Sneakers]

Wait doesn’t the shut down wings speak to the point that they regularly or periodically are not at full capacity? It sounds like the ER/ICU you spent lots of time at had hectic or chaotic capacity levels, not predictably or consistently high ones.

As I said earlier, the stats are calculated on current working beds, not total beds in the ICU. If the TOTAL ICU is 100 beds, and they reduce to 50%, ie 50 beds, the stats are calculated on 50 beds, not 100. In a full ICU, 90 beds is 90%. In the 50% case, 45 beds is 90%, ie "full" capacity. As needs warrant, more beds are made available, but it will stay in the 90-95% range to keep the bookkeepers happy. Anything less is not profitable.