Beta
Smile!
"let the first one amongst you who has not eaten bacon or shrimp or worked on the Sabbath be the first one to deny the gay person their cake" yeah, don't see that happening.
Ed Zachary!
What is it about the gays?..
- Thread starter Christy
- Start date
Ed Zachary!
Corinthians?....Shriners?Amused_despair
New Member
actually, didn't Jesus use the whip to drive the cattle and sheep as he over threw the tables? I don't think the Bible ever says he used the whip on the people themselves.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Devoid of a better answer for this... Perhaps Jesus saw a huge difference between someone who commits a sin, and someone who defiles the temple for financial gain.
Amused_despair
New Member
Jesus did not seem to be known for a high tolerance for hypocrites
I have to disagree with your logic that gay rights and civil rights are fundamentally different, even though I agree that the government shouldn't have a say in who a business does business with. You either agree with free market capitalism or communism, half measures just leaves the door open for lawyers to muck up everything.Good Morning, Beta!
Holy Moly those are pretty big Red Herrings you've thrown into the discussion here.
But since you've brought them up, I will try and answer them.
Neither religion nor gay rights have ANYTHING to do with civil rights and you using it is equivalent to someone playing the Race/Hate card. Hello! This isn't about refusing someone on race.
Once (or twice, I'm losing count here) again, he didn't refuse service to them because of their sexual orientation or WHO THEY WERE, he refused because he was asked to do something that was against his beliefs. It is not against the Christian faith to do business with gays, but it is against the Christian faith to knowingly participate and profit from a gay marriage or civil union. THAT'S the point.
By the way... I'm finding it SO ironic that most people on this board say these bakers (as well as Christians) are SOOOO hateful and intolerent and discriminating when they themselves are SOOOO hateful and intolerant and discriminating against this baker (and Christians). YOU are the ones forcing us to do something we do not believe in. YOU are the ones who are the bullies here, not us.
YOU preach at US and tell us not to judge but then have the freaking nerves to JUDGE AND LABEL US by lumping us in with some disgusting looney-tunes hate group (Westboro Baptists).
But I guess that's okay...
Zguy28
New Member
And its all academic really, the law is the law is the law. Whether you disagree with it or not, if you break it, you face the punishment. And right now the law declares that sexual preference is a protected class on the same level as race. And the interpretation of that is far ranging.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Ok, there is a simple perception problem here. How many religious shows are on TV? How hard is it to find radio promoting Christ? How many Churches are there? Are people freely and openly congregating at them? How often does a President publicly say "God bless America"? Billboards? Going door to door seeking converts? How about tax benefits?
It is silly to argue Christianity can't be talked about, openly, in public. Further, it is silly to argue that there is ANY comparison to how ingrained into the fabric of daily life the homosexual 'agenda' is when measure against Christianity unless that comparison says 'not much' for homosexuality and 'a whole bunch' for Christianity.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Small pieces at a time Larry. They antis have managed to remove it from our schools, no prayers before games or any other event, Christmas is slowly being reduced to ‘Holiday’. They know they can’t go after the churches and TV shows yet. First there has to be a large enough base of hatred towards Christianity. They aren’t there yet. With everything, progressive are patient and chip away at their agendas slowly.
I’m talking about a growing mentality though… it is becoming increasingly popular to talk positively about homosexuality while increasingly popular to vilify religion – particularly Christianity.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
I would agree that the tide is turning but, I don't agree that Christ is banished from public and only gay can be spoken or anything close to it.
In the mean time, if I were trying to reverse that trend or, at least protect the faith, I would not be happy that people are taking these enormous moral stands against baking cakes for homos nor would I be happy that candidates for office claim God built in an anti pregnancy in case of rape gene nor would I be pursing Constitutional banning of gay marriage and, if I did, I sure as hell wouldn't be shocked were the other side to push back.
If Christianity is losing ground, it is every bit as much because of behavior of many in the faith who are all for religious freedom as long as you choose their faith as it is because of the Big Gay Tide.
Frankly, it is more so the fault of people who claim to be of the faith. Can you imagine where we'd be on this social battle if Christians said, in response to gay marriage, the following;
Good for you!
This is the sort of thing I come across all the time. YOU can't comprehend it, because you have a different perspective. You equate sexual preference to preferring the beach over the mountains, or the choice of a football team. That's your understanding. If that was everyone's, your argument would be 100% valid. When I discuss politics with someone who is decidedly liberal, I often have the same thing - since they can't grasp a different perspective, they reason it must point to a fault in CHARACTER. Or lack of information. Or they were TAUGHT that way - or they've been sold a bill of goods by the likes of - well, you know the rest. When I get into discussions with liberals, they can't see that I basically don't trust government to run my life - I'd rather suffer alone than have someone tell me what to do.
I used to believe all kinds of things about homosexuality. In grade school I came across kids all the time who did not fit in socially with others of the same gender, so from the perspective of a fifth grader and up - they chose to EMBRACE their feminine side rather than man up and stop being a cry-baby. (Try to remember, this is the point of view of a kid who barely understands sexuality). YOU learned to take a punch. YOU learned to hit back and stand up for yourself - but crybaby ran to the girls for sympathy and tattled to the teacher. You learned to REALLY dislike effeminate kids. The only time you liked them was when they got picked AFTER you on sports teams.
So I grew up until college believing that gayness was just weak kids who embraced the other side. It was a character flaw, to me. Once I joined a church that declared it a de facto sin, that made it that much easier to dislike them.
Then of course, I met a gay man in college who woudn't take no for an answer. And a gay orderly who did stuff while I was too inebriated to stop him. Made me downright hate them.
So - I "get" the religious angle of religious people. When you've been on the receiving end of some bad stuff from gays, it's hard to see them all as wanting to just be left alone.
What I get from Christy's original question is, what is it about gayness that puts it so high up on the list of things Christian groups malign? And aside from the things I mentioned, it's because society is asking them to accept it as ok. Most people aren't crazy about adultery, even if it goes on all around them. You find it really uncomfortable to deal with friends who don't know their spouses are cheating on them. I can absolutely tell you, Christians in evangelical churches take a dim view of that, and sometimes humiliate them in public over it. To them, it's not "ok". Most other "sins" people sort of recognize as wrong, even if they do it themselves. You feel bad about it. You say you're sorry. You recognize, "this is wrong" even if you can't seem to help it.
Christian groups don't like the "agenda" because they see it directed at society and future generations. They don't like the idea of society accepting that it is "ok".
We have the same thing in other religions. We think IT is also weird. Remember bin Laden's manifesto? Aside from other objections, he didn't like the violations of Islam and sins against Allah he saw in the West.
I have the same perspective as many do - if you can keep your religion to yourself without assaulting or injuring others - believe what you want. The New Testament implores Christians to not be a part of this world (as far as being caught up in what it defines as right and wrong) but to still live in it, that they might attract others to the gospel by their lives. It's not up to them to change society, because they can't. You change *people*. Stick with that.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Right, but, I assume most people are like me; what you don't comprehend or understand is instantly interesting. I didn't comprehend homosexuality when I was younger. Then, I learned it's just as natural as my natural attraction to women. I am fortunate to have a gay brother so that I learned this much sooner than many would. So, now, the overt hostility to homosexuals by Christians. If you're not for religious freedom, it makes sense. If you are, it doesn't. Just like attraction to same sex. I don't 'get it' as I am not gay but, I do understand it. Same as the dislike of gays. I don't understand it but, I do get it.
It's why I love a good debate; I wanna learn something. That's not to say I am easily convinced. It is to say I to hear conviction and honestly held beliefs and not a bunch of bumper sticker sheep faith.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
When it comes specifically to sexual preference, if you meant me in particular, I long ago learned that gay people look at the same sex like I look at the opposite sex. Why some religious people can't, or won't comprehend that simple reality is the fascinating part of this. Using football and other analogies is only part of trying to make the point but, the bottom line is gay people look at the same sex, in general, as heterosexuals see the opposite sex.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Whereas you may not like how this goes: Christians largely place all sins in one pot; as we believe God does. We don’t believe God differentiates between homosexual behavior and murder. I know in our world they are hugely different; but in terms of the things that separate us from God, homosexuality causes just as much separation from God as murder. So, as God is looking down on us, we can’t, in our own conscience, say “Good for you”. I mean what makes us happy while making God unhappy, isn’t this the antithesis of being a Christian?
Larry Gude
Strung Out
OK, so, how do you, how does the faith, in your view, reconcile non believers? As murderers? And I don't mean as a practical matter in our modern world but, as a matter of what you are saying, what it is supposed to be?
baydoll
New Member
Ask someone (preferably a black person) what they think of your statement Merlin. You cannot compare what the blacks have gone through with that of gays, I'm sorry. There is no comparison. With all due respect to whatever injustices gays have suffered - and there has been many (and my heart goes out to them and I wish it wasn't so, BELIEVE ME), they can't even be compared to the struggles blacks have endured here in the United States.
How many gays have been taken from their homelands against their will and forced to work as slaves? How many gays have been considered someone's piece of property? When has it ever been legal to beat, torture or kill them? When have gays been given separate drinking fountains to drink from as well as separate schools, parks, restaurants so on and so forth? When have they ever been denied the rights to vote?
Being gay isn't race, color, religion, or national origin, it is a behavior. And claiming behavior as a 'protected class' will open doors to places we do not even want to go to. (Where do you draw the line?)
But hey I agree with the rest of your post though - the government has NO RIGHTS to dictate to us how to run our lives and certainly not our businesses. America was founded on personal freedom and liberty (well hey, it used to be anyway) and forcing a business owner to perform a service for an individual, FOR WHATEVER REASON, infringes upon that business owner's liberty and freedom.
There are people who look at little children or sheep in the same way. KNOWING that doesn't make it more palatable. I accept gayness on the part that it has a biological basis that is approaching ironclad soundness, whereas previously I looked upon it as mental illness brought on by years of influence and bad decisions - much like, say, being grossly overweight.
PsyOps
Pixelated
We don’t. In the military we’re all one of the same purpose. We joined to serve our country, in a secular manner. Sure, some may pray for victory and for their own safety; but not so they can fight and spread Christianity. We pray to win to preserve our way of life in this country. We do not receive orders “Onward Christian soldier…” And our non-believers do not receive a “thank you non-believer for fighting our great crusade to spread Christianity around the world”. And when we come home the people do not see us as ‘Christian soldiers’, they see us as Americans defend a nation.
I am a Christian and served 20 years, and not once did I consider what I was doing as a means to spread my faith to any other country. I served in defense of my country; that’s it!