What is it about the gays?..

[b23hqb]

Lot to digest on this post, but as with most things, one shouldn't make sweeping statements regarding groups of people. While many are not trying to "run Christianity" others are not so passive. Just search the web on "gay Christians". Or look up Matthew Vines.

Also, certainly a Christian should expect mockery when standing for righteousness, for it is contrary to the world's beliefs.

That sentence says it all to the world, Z. Christians are not of this world, the world hates us and what we stand for, simply because the world hates God and His Light. Many will will not understand that it is that simple - if one does not love and follow God, the only alternative is they hate Him.

This thread has rolled on, and we stand where we stand, either side of the issue.

 

[baydoll]

You're not really paying attention to what I'm posting. Because you served someone does not mean you condone their behavior. Did Jesus condone adultery? Yet he still forgave her and told her to sin no more. He did not turn her away, he did not demand she be stoned (as their law demanded); he loved her and had mercy on her. But he did not condone her behavior.

And didn't put Jesus into this; Jesus was in this from the beginning by default.

And again, the baker had no problem serving gays in his place of business, he refused to do / make something that would have violated his conscience. Do you think Jesus would have wanted this baker to do something that was totally against his beliefs? Seriously?

Jesus loved the sinner, but He also stood His ground when it came to defiling the things of God.

To serve these people a wedding cake is to say we (as Christians) approve of their sin. Is this the message Jesus would want these gay folks to have? That it is okay for then to continue to do something God says is a huge NO NO?

I think NOT.

No the message should be this: they will die in their sins should they continue this apart from Christ.

I would much rather they live. If I'm branded as hateful and intolerant and a bigot for telling them this then so be it. I would STILL much rather they live rather than die in their sins.

God's Word has NOTHING positive to say about the unrepentant homosexual or otherwise. There is only the expectation of judgment. To hint at anything less is being dishonest. AND hateful.

 

[baydoll]

Indeed...wasn't it something like "let the non-sinner throw the first stone?" Because we're supposed to be loving towards our neighbors. If Christians are supposed to walk in Jesus' footsteps and live up to that standard, how does Christianity also tell people it's OK not to do what Jesus would have done? Simple answer: it doesn't. The guy wasn't being a CHRISTian.

Is it loving to not warn a person they are in danger of hellfire? Or is that being intolerant, hateful, not CHRIST-like ?

 

[PsyOps]

And again, the baker had no problem serving gays in his place of business, he refused to do / make something that would have violated his conscience. Do you think Jesus would have wanted this baker to do something that was totally against his beliefs? Seriously?

Jesus loved the sinner, but He also stood His ground when it came to defiling the things of God.

To serve these people a wedding cake is to say we (as Christians) approve of their sin. Is this the message Jesus would want these gay folks to have? That it is okay for then to continue to do something God says is a huge NO NO?

I think NOT.

No the message should be this: they will die in their sins should they continue this apart from Christ.

I would much rather they live. If I'm branded as hateful and intolerant and a bigot for telling them this then so be it. I would STILL much rather they live rather than die in their sins.

God's Word has NOTHING positive to say about the unrepentant homosexual or otherwise. There is only the expectation of judgment. To hint at anything less is being dishonest. AND hateful.

You’re conflating the issue. There was no real way of distinguishing one customer from another walking around their bakery; so serving gays – an ordinary customer – is not at issue here. But I’d submit to you, if they had a problem serving gays in one capacity they would certainly have a problem with it all the way around; it’s just a matter of what they could actually do about it.

Again… Jesus would have baked the cake and used it as an opportunity to minister, just as he did with the rich man, as he did with the prostitute, as he did with the adulteress, as he did even when he was on the cross. He touched unclean people, he healed on the Sabbath, he took in the lowest of the low as disciples. What about the 500 Jesus fed. No doubt there were all manner of people in that crowd. Do you doubt there may have even been some gay people there, some murderers, some thieves, some adulterers...?

“To serve these people a wedding cake is to say we (as Christians) approve of their sin”… then that would mean even having gays in their store would be condoning sin. You admitted they had no problem serving gays… by your own words they are condoning sin by serving gays.

 

[Toxick]

Is it loving to not warn a person they are in danger of hellfire? Or is that being intolerant, hateful, not CHRIST-like ?

I would daresay that in the year 2014 every man, woman and child has heard of Jesus.
I would venture further and say that every homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, or what-have-you, are all well aware that what they are doing makes Baby Jesus cry.



The Good News of our Lord is Spread. It's done. Mission accomplished.

Anyone who chooses to engage in sinful behavior is doing so with the conscious knowledge of the consequences, whether or not they believe the consequences are real.



Warning individuals that they are in danger of hell is just piling on at this point, and it's unnecessary.





They will NOT change for you.

They will NOT change for me.

They will NOT change for God.




God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.




Worry about your own genitals and move on with life, says I.

 

[baydoll]

You’re conflating the issue. There was no real way of distinguishing one customer from another walking around their bakery; so serving gays – an ordinary customer – is not at issue here. But I’d submit to you, if they had a problem serving gays in one capacity they would certainly have a problem with it all the way around; it’s just a matter of what they could actually do about it.

Serving gays period IS the issue here because YOU'VE made it an issue. Again, the issue in this particular case was not about serving someone because of who he is, it was because the owner was asked to contribute to something that is against his beliefs. Night and day.

I posted this several pages back but I'll post it again:

I have a gay son. I love my gay son. I love him for who he IS and I love his gay friends for who THEY are AS PEOPLE. I have NO problems going out with them, having them in my home, going on vacations with them, having them attend family gatherings on and on... But I DO have a problem with WHAT THEY DO. If my son ever approached me and said that he and his SO (whom I also love dearly) were getting married and asked me to attend I would say NO. NOT because of who they are but because of WHAT THEY DO.

Are you getting it now?

 

[Larry Gude]

We don’t. In the military we’re all one of the same purpose. We joined to serve our country, in a secular manner. Sure, some may pray for victory and for their own safety; but not so they can fight and spread Christianity. We pray to win to preserve our way of life in this country. We do not receive orders “Onward Christian soldier…” And our non-believers do not receive a “thank you non-believer for fighting our great crusade to spread Christianity around the world”. And when we come home the people do not see us as ‘Christian soldiers’, they see us as Americans defend a nation.

I am a Christian and served 20 years, and not once did I consider what I was doing as a means to spread my faith to any other country. I served in defense of my country; that’s it!

OK, I think we have it covered how YOU see it. Now, if we can just convince them, peace will be at hand!

 

[baydoll]

I would daresay that in the year 2014 every man, woman and child has heard of Jesus.
I would venture further and say that every homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, or what-have-you, are all well aware that what they are doing makes Baby Jesus cry.



The Good News of our Lord is Spread. It's done. Mission accomplished.

Anyone who chooses to engage in sinful behavior is doing so with the conscious knowledge of the consequences, whether or not they believe the consequences are real.



Warning individuals that they are in danger of hell is just piling on at this point, and it's unnecessary.





They will NOT change for you.

They will NOT change for me.

They will NOT change for God.




God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.




Worry about your own genitals and move on with life, says I.

Oh I see...so are you God?

How do you know they will not change?

Are you All Knowing, All Seeing as well?

I changed. Someone had the guts (and love) to tell ME I was in danger of Hellfire and told me about this Savior who died for me and my sins. I had no idea I was headed in that direction prior to that. I thank God that person had the guts to warn me.

Or am I an exception to your rule?

 

[baydoll]

“To serve these people a wedding cake is to say we (as Christians) approve of their sin”… then that would mean even having gays in their store would be condoning sin. You admitted they had no problem serving gays… by your own words they are condoning sin by serving gays.

Again, since this seems to be a blind spot with you, PsyOps, I stand in agreement with you that we should be like Jesus in that He ate with sinners, WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. We are to go out and befriend all people no matter who they are. We have NOTHING AGAINST THESE PEOPLE THEMSELVES (see my prior post to you.) BUT! What we DO have a problem with is being forced to DO SOMETHING THAT IS AGAINST WHAT WE BELIEVE IS SIN. In this case GAY MARRIAGE. THAT'S the issue here, not the people themselves.

Good GRIEF!!!

 

[Amused_despair]

Oh I see...so are you God?

How do you know they will not change?

Are you All Knowing, All Seeing as well?

I changed. Someone had the guts (and love) to tell ME I was in danger of Hellfire and told me about this Savior who died for me and my sins. I had no idea I was headed in that direction prior to that. I thank God that person had the guts to warn me.

Or am I an exception to your rule?

Did they refuse to make you a cake unless you changed?

The question is, "what is it about gays?" Why is it OK to bake s cake for atheists, non-Christians, people who covet their neighbor's wife, people who eat shellfish, etc, etc? Since Catholics use graven images (against the Old Testament) and pray in repetitive prayers (which Jesus discouraged), is it OK to bake cakes for them too? Why is the line drawn at gays? Why not at people swear oaths? People who hoard wealth? People who make a huge deal about being religious so that everyone knows instead of fasting quietly and giving alms so secretly that the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing? Why are gays the target and not the rest?

 

[baydoll]

Again… Jesus would have baked the cake and used it as an opportunity to minister, just as he did with the rich man, as he did with the prostitute, as he did with the adulteress, as he did even when he was on the cross. He touched unclean people, he healed on the Sabbath, he took in the lowest of the low as disciples. What about the 500 Jesus fed. No doubt there were all manner of people in that crowd. Do you doubt there may have even been some gay people there, some murderers, some thieves, some adulterers...?

But you are forgetting Jesus did not STOP there. He also warned people to "unless you repent, you too will all perish." Luke 13:3

and

If your right eye offends you, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your body parts should perish, rather than your whole body should be cast into hell. Mat 5:29.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev 3:19


Why do you call Me, Lord, Lord, and not do (practice, obey ) what I tell you? Luke 6:46

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mat 7:13-14.

If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. Mat 16:24-25

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. John 3:5-6


Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ Matt 7

and many, many more such as these.

 

[baydoll]

Did they refuse to make you a cake unless you changed?

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The question is, "what is it about gays?" Why is it OK to bake s cake for atheists, non-Christians, people who covet their neighbor's wife, people who eat shellfish, etc, etc? Since Catholics use graven images (against the Old Testament) and pray in repetitive prayers (which Jesus discouraged), is it OK to bake cakes for them too? Why is the line drawn at gays? Why not at people swear oaths? People who hoard wealth? People who make a huge deal about being religious so that everyone knows instead of fasting quietly and giving alms so secretly that the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing? Why are gays the target and not the rest?

Oh my freaking goodness!

AGAIN this is NOT about not serving GAYS but about forcing someone to DO SOMETHING THAT IS AGAINST SOMEONE'S BELIEFS in this case GAY MARRIAGES.

I mean seriously, is it really that hard for some of you to comprehend? Even my GAY SON AND HIS FRIENDS get it.

 

[Toxick]

Oh I see...so are you God?

Where in the bloody #### did you get that?

How do you know they will not change?

Historical evidence?

Are you All Knowing, All Seeing as well?

Yeah - sure.

I changed. Someone had the guts (and love) to tell ME I was in danger of Hellfire and told me about this Savior who died for me and my sins. I had no idea I was headed in that direction prior to that. I thank God that person had the guts to warn me.

Or am I an exception to your rule?

You must be.

 

[baydoll]

Don't stop there! (Amused person)

What would happen if those VERY SAME PEOPLE tried to force a Muslim run bakery to make THEM a freaking wedding cake?
Gee I wonder how well THAT would turn out.

Why is it only the CHRISTIAN BUSINESSES AND THE CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES THAT ARE ALWAYS SINGLED OUT?

 

[baydoll]

Where in the bloody #### did you get that?


.

From this:

Warning individuals that they are in danger of hell is just piling on at this point, and it's unnecessary.





They will NOT change for you.

They will NOT change for me.

They will NOT change for God.

 

[baydoll]

historical evidence

Me. As well as thousands of other changed individuals that at one point in their lives ignorant of God and His Ways.

 

[baydoll]

You must be.

So are many many others who agree with me and disagree with you.

 

[Amused_despair]

Don't stop there! (Amused person)

What would happen if those VERY SAME PEOPLE tried to force a Muslim run bakery to make THEM a freaking wedding cake?
Gee I wonder how well THAT would turn out.

Why is it only the CHRISTIAN BUSINESSES AND THE CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES THAT ARE ALWAYS SINGLED OUT?

Is there a Muslim bakery in that city? I am sure it would be the same response. It is a shame that the fundamentalists have taken over Islam. In the Dark and Middle Ages Islam was more tolerant of other religions than the Christian kingdoms. Jews and Christians could pay a tax and live in peace in Muslim lands. Jews were tortured, killed, or driven out of Christian lands. The Christian west has matured and the Islamic east has regressed. The difference is the Christian lands have separated religion and law, while the Islamic countries are combining the two even more.

 

[PsyOps]

Again, since this seems to be a blind spot with you, PsyOps, I stand in agreement with you that we should be like Jesus in that He ate with sinners, WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. We are to go out and befriend all people no matter who they are. We have NOTHING AGAINST THESE PEOPLE THEMSELVES (see my prior post to you.) BUT! What we DO have a problem with is being forced to DO SOMETHING THAT IS AGAINST WHAT WE BELIEVE IS SIN. In this case GAY MARRIAGE. THAT'S the issue here, not the people themselves.

Good GRIEF!!!

Well, for the record I stated a long time ago in this thread that I support the baker on constitutional grounds. It should be their right to not serve anyone they don’t want to serve. So, is this a constitutional discussion or a Christian discussions? I thought it was a Christian discussion.

In the end… we live in America where we have rights; and I don’t believe one of those is that we get to walk in any place and expect to be served. I as a consumer do not own the establishment I am walking into; so I don’t get to make their rules for them. AND, we have that pesky little 1st amendment where government doesn’t get to come into a private business and tell them they can’t operate their business in a manner that they feel is consistent with their faith.

All that being said, I think it’s poor business practice and I think it exhibits poor Christian values to not serve people. I’m not going to change my mind on this.

 

[Toxick]

From this:

Warning individuals that they are in danger of hell is just piling on at this point, and it's unnecessary.





They will NOT change for you.

They will NOT change for me.

They will NOT change for God.

That's quite a leap.



And perhaps my first sentence is a bit ambiguous and I'm painting with too broad a brush.
Individuals "who've made up their minds" - is a more accurate subject of that sentence.