What is it about the gays?..

[RPMDAD]

For far too long in my life I have watched all too many Christians shut people out. I told this story some time ago… when I was stationed in FL there was a church near my house. It was a very proper church; people dressed in suits and fine dresses. One day a homeless man showed up. Rumor was he was an alcoholic. He sat in the back of the church. When some of the ‘elders’ were told he was there they went back and escorted him out telling him drunks and people that dressed that way weren’t welcome there. It was my assumption the guy was looking for a way out of his plight and church was the place for him to go. They found his body later in the woods; an apparent suicide.

The guy didn’t fit their narrow thinking of who belongs in God’s house. I get that a bakery isn’t a church, but the owners turned it into one by preaching their rejection of people they disagree with. Jesus forgave EVERYONE, not just those who fit a narrow image of who belongs and who doesn’t. Something as simple as refusing to bake a cake sends a loud message that some people don’t belong. Those that don’t belong gets decided in the end when God makes the final decision. Until then, do we continue to put to death the adulterer and homosexuals or do we offer them what Jesus offered the adulterer and those that put Him to death? Do we bake that cake? If they reject the message, let God decide.

Good Post Psy. IMHO, the people at the church and elders were totally wrong, turning him away, as long as he was not causing any disruptions to the service.

 

[hotcoffee]

I'm not even sure why I am bringing this up, because I already know how this discussion will go (not well). But it has always befuddled me as to how much anger homosexuality brings out in so many Christians. Take this article for instance. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/9/transgendered-priest-give-sermon-washington-nation/

You've got a transgendered Episcopal Priest giving a sermon at the National Cathedral. The comments at the end are just insane. Talk about some hate being leveled at other human beings by the religion that is supposed to be all about "love thy neighbor" and whatnot.

Sure it's a sin, you can't say (in accordance with the bible) that it isn't, however, so is coveting and adultery. Not keeping the sabbath day holy is also a big no no. So all you football fans are sinning like nobodies business (just sayin). :shrug:

I just don't get why being a homo is so much worse than any of the other sins within the Bible. Hell, being queer didn't even make the Top Ten (as in commandments).

What's with all the hate? Please discuss.

I feel like I'm in that geico advertisement.... that's not how this works... that's not how any of this works.

This whole thread is off kilter. The original question had nothing to do with a gay couple or a cake. It had to do with a transgender priest and the LGBT acceptance in the church.

 

[Hank]

I feel like I'm in that geico advertisement.... that's not how this works... that's not how any of this works.

This whole thread is off kilter. The original question had nothing to do with a gay couple or a cake. It had to do with a transgender priest and the LGBT acceptance in the church.

Weird that a thread would go off track.

 

[Toxick]

So one could read ones mind if they have a conversation with that person?

One could


- if one puts words in my ####ing mouth, or infers things that I didn't say.

 

[Gilligan]

Weird that a thread would go off track.

 

[b23hqb]

Weird that a thread would go off track.

Is this the first time that has happened?

 

[baydoll]

And, again, this boils it all down to the question of religious freedom; are you for it?

I get the argument that the difference between a sin where the sinner is trying to cut it out and one who is not but, again, if a homosexual is not of your faith and isn't claiming to be how do you propose to live in peace with anyone if you still want them to behave as a devout member of your faith? A gay person coming to me to bake them a cake for their union, two consenting adults, are not asking me to join their faith nor give up mine. They, as a neighbor, are saying "Hey, neighbor, I see you bake cakes. We would like one for a celebration."

If I say "Sorry. I don't think you should be doing that and can not, in good conscience, bake you a cake. It will threaten my faith" how am I not being a poor neighbor and creating division and friction where there, easily, could be none?

When a Christian is asked to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple it gives them a message that God is okay with two people of the same sex is marrying. This is what I was trying to convey to you in my previous post. When it comes down to it I have a choice: either I obey man or obey God. God says marriage is between a man and a woman. Throughout the Bible God says homosexuality is a big No No. So if I were to bake a WEDDING CAKE for a gay couple I would be disobeying God. Baking them a WEDDING CAKE for their marriage is giving them a message that God is okay with their 'marriage'. If I were asked to bake a REGULAR CAKE for say a birthday party for a gay man I would absolutely have no problems doing so.

I have no problems with people who believe other than me, that is their rights and their freedom of religious beliefs. BUT it works both ways... I should also as a Christian have the rights and freedom to my beliefs as well.

IN this case the Christian baker's rights were trampled on.

 

[baydoll]

The way I read it, they are supposed to be put to death and it will be their own fault.

That's the Old Testament. Christians are not under the law but under grace.

http://carm.org/why-do-christians-not-obey-old-testaments-commands-to-kill-homosexuals

 

[baydoll]

I don't really want to pry too much, but I have a question because this confuses me a bit.

Do you think your son and his SO are having sexual relations?

If the answer to the question above is yes, then are you not already "participating" in their sin by going shopping with them, dining with them, etc? I ask because I'm not sure why you are differentiating an actual marriage as what you can't "participate" in, or why that's where you draw your line.

They're both adults, Radiant. It would be the same if I had an adult daughter who was single and she was having sex with her boyfriend. I wouldn't disown her, I would tell her what God says about her behavior but I would still do things with her. Now if she were to go after a married man and break up his marriage and then THEY got married I wouldn't attend their wedding either.

 

[Larry Gude]

When a Christian is asked to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple it gives them a message that God is okay with two people of the same sex is marrying. This is what I was trying to convey to you in my previous post. When it comes down to it I have a choice: either I obey man or obey God. God says marriage is between a man and a woman. Throughout the Bible God says homosexuality is a big No No. So if I were to bake a WEDDING CAKE for a gay couple I would be disobeying God. Baking them a WEDDING CAKE for their marriage is giving them a message that God is okay with their 'marriage'. If I were asked to bake a REGULAR CAKE for say a birthday party for a gay man I would absolutely have no problems doing so.

I have no problems with people who believe other than me, that is their rights and their freedom of religious beliefs. BUT it works both ways... I should also as a Christian have the rights and freedom to my beliefs as well.

IN this case the Christian baker's rights were trampled on.

We'd be on the exact same page if we were talking about a minister being forced to officiate or a baker being forced to show up and be part of the ceremony or being forced to hold the reception at his house or bakery. We are not on the same page because, in my view, the baking of a cake is just a baking of a cake. It confers no acquiescence or agreement or blessing of the consumer(s) of it anymore than if he were a plumber cleaning their toilet or the gas station selling them gas or the lawn guy mowing their grass or the tax guy doing their books or a doctor trying to heal them.

This baker dude has issues and his issues make a mockery, in my view, of his faith. I'm a sinner, big time but, it's my faith, too.

Now, if you'd like to defend plumbers and lawn guys and doctors and gas stations and so forth all rejecting them on proper and good Biblical grounds, please, go ahead. However, you can't while retaining much in the way of credibility for the faith. This guy has brought shame to the faith by taking such an absurd position and, in the process, is helping the argument of those who may seek to force a church or a minister or a witness to a wedding to be part of something they object to.

 

[baydoll]

When you have the opportunity to solve a problem you can either ignore it or you can try to solve it. Doing nothing will rarely result in it just going away. But I want to make it clear that people do what they are compelled to do. The baker seemed compelled to express their faith (not bake the gay couple a cake) and rather than using that as an opportunity to ‘solve a problem’, they were compelled to express their faith by casting judgment and shutting people out; by essentially telling the gay couple ‘your sins are too unacceptable for me to serve you’.

I think everyone has someone in their family that is gay. I have a cousin and nephew. Like you, I love them dearly. I think it’s safe to say that even if your own child commits murder you wouldn’t stop loving them. THAT’S the difference between loving the person and hating the sin. Just like you, I’m not compelled to preach to them about their lifestyle. But the baker decided to act on his/her faith; send a message. In my opinion, if you’re going to take a ‘vocal’ position on someone’s behavior (sin) it should be done in a teachable manner not in a manner that shuts people out.

And by baking them a wedding cake you are teaching them what, PsyOps?

 

[baydoll]

We'd be on the exact same page if we were talking about a minister being forced to officiate or a baker being forced to show up and be part of the ceremony or being forced to hold the reception at his house or bakery. We are not on the same page because, in my view, the baking of a cake is just a baking of a cake. It confers no acquiescence or agreement or blessing of the consumer(s) of it anymore than if he were a plumber cleaning their toilet or the gas station selling them gas or the lawn guy mowing their grass or the tax guy doing their books or a doctor trying to heal them.

This baker dude has issues and his issues make a mockery, in my view, of his faith. I'm a sinner, big time but, it's my faith, too.

Now, if you'd like to defend plumbers and lawn guys and doctors and gas stations and so forth all rejecting them on proper and good Biblical grounds, please, go ahead. However, you can't while retaining much in the way of credibility for the faith. This guy has brought shame to the faith by taking such an absurd position and, in the process, is helping the argument of those who may seek to force a church or a minister or a witness to a wedding to be part of something they object to.

What is 'faith', Larry? And what is your faith in? How much do you know God?

 

[kwillia]

When a Christian is asked to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple it gives them a message that God is okay with two people of the same sex is marrying. This is what I was trying to convey to you in my previous post. When it comes down to it I have a choice: either I obey man or obey God. God says marriage is between a man and a woman. Throughout the Bible God says homosexuality is a big No No. So if I were to bake a WEDDING CAKE for a gay couple I would be disobeying God. Baking them a WEDDING CAKE for their marriage is giving them a message that God is okay with their 'marriage'. If I were asked to bake a REGULAR CAKE for say a birthday party for a gay man I would absolutely have no problems doing so.

I don't see it that way. You would be simply providing them a cake and chosing to provide one or not provide one would have no impact on the outcome on the two deciding to join in marriage. They can get married without a cake. Besides, it's not your place to play God. Give them a cake and if God is truly unhappy with their union the cake will fall over at the reception.

 

[baydoll]

For far too long in my life I have watched all too many Christians shut people out. I told this story some time ago… when I was stationed in FL there was a church near my house. It was a very proper church; people dressed in suits and fine dresses. One day a homeless man showed up. Rumor was he was an alcoholic. He sat in the back of the church. When some of the ‘elders’ were told he was there they went back and escorted him out telling him drunks and people that dressed that way weren’t welcome there. It was my assumption the guy was looking for a way out of his plight and church was the place for him to go. They found his body later in the woods; an apparent suicide.

The guy didn’t fit their narrow thinking of who belongs in God’s house. I get that a bakery isn’t a church, but the owners turned it into one by preaching their rejection of people they disagree with. Jesus forgave EVERYONE, not just those who fit a narrow image of who belongs and who doesn’t. Something as simple as refusing to bake a cake sends a loud message that some people don’t belong. Those that don’t belong gets decided in the end when God makes the final decision. Until then, do we continue to put to death the adulterer and homosexuals or do we offer them what Jesus offered the adulterer and those that put Him to death? Do we bake that cake? If they reject the message, let God decide.

No it doesn't. It sends them a message that God is not okay with them getting married, that's all.

Good grief talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[baydoll]

I don't see it that way. You would be simply providing them a cake and chosing to provide one or not provide one would have no impact on the outcome on the two deciding to join in marriage. They can get married without a cake. Besides, it's not your place to play God. Give them a cake and if God is truly unhappy with their union the cake will fall over at the reception.

But it's okay for you to play God?

 

[kwillia]

But it's okay for you to play God?

Explain yourself. Your comment makes no sense.

 

[Larry Gude]

What is 'faith', Larry? And what is your faith in? How much do you know God?

Faith is whatever it means to you. I am an American first, Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are my bibles. They, and they alone, the principles of individual rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are the ONLY things standing between you and I and a hostile world. They codify our rights to believe as we see fit, think as we see fit, worship and speak as we see fit, right up to harming one another. Absent the United States of America, Christianity is in a tough spot world wide.

Whatever I know or don't know of God, follows my belief in those words. Now, I do firmly believe we are, basically, a Christian nation and that Christ played a large role in the nations birth. That's why I liked your other post so much; you are sincere and represent the best of the faith, in my view.

 

[Beta]

But it's okay for you to play God?

It sounds like you trying to teach homosexuals that their lifestyle is wrong, you're trying to play Jesus. Isn't that the same thing?

 

[PsyOps]

And by baking them a wedding cake you are teaching them what, PsyOps?

When Jesus fed the 5000, did he just feed them? He also healed and had compassion on them. I wonder what sort of people he healed. I wonder if he made sure first that none of them were gay or adulterers, or murderers, or any other kind of sin before healing and feeding them? I don't get the impression he did.

Baking the cake also sends the message that we are here to serve, not judge.

 

[b23hqb]

That's the Old Testament. Christians are not under the law but under grace.

http://carm.org/why-do-christians-not-obey-old-testaments-commands-to-kill-homosexuals

Yup. CARM is on my list of favorites and has been for years. Their logic and facts are really unarguable against. Love the sinner (but not approve of, condone, or promote said sin), but hate the sin. Christians follow the grace that put down the law.