What is it about the gays?..

[Toxick]

No offense,

This is super-secret code for: "I'm about to intentionally insult you, but I don't want it to appear like it's intentional"

but citing "facts" and "logic" in a thread about religion is funny to me.

Believe it or not, some of us came to God through "facts" and "logic".

So, no offense, but I think you're full of ####.








(No, I'm not going to explain myself - It's something I came to over the course of many agnostic years, so it's not something I'm interested in briefly and superficially bandying about here - and I seriously doubt you'd be honestly open to anything I had to say anyway)

On another note, what if all you super-religious folks are wrong?

You're familiar with Pascal's Wager?

If we're wrong, then.... so what?

What if there is no afterlife, and you just, die?

I wish I could believe this.

Honestly.
The concept of dying and then ceasing to exist is attractive to me, compared to the concept of eternal life.

I have pondered the concept of eternity, at length, and the concept is unbelievably terrifying.




Seriously terrifying. It terrifies me. It's one of the few things that actually scares me.

Even if it's pleasant - even if it's the paradise we all hope it is.... Just sit back and think about how long "forever" is. The very idea is incomprehensible to the mind.




I'm open to the possibility (probability) that the transformation that occurs upon death removes the chill from this idea, but that's not very comforting to me.

Sure, some of you may actually believe that it's your calling to do what you do, but what if it's all for nothing?

Again, who cares. In the end it won't matter if it was a waste. How many billions of people are currently dead with nothing to even show they were here.

 

[Hank]

No offense, but citing "facts" and "logic" in a thread about religion is funny to me.

The burden of proof lies with the believers, and nothing in that article does that except for citing passages of a book written thousands of years ago, and re-written over and over again.

On another note, what if all you super-religious folks are wrong? What if there is no afterlife, and you just, die? Do you honestly believe that your short and valuable time on this earth is better spent telling others that their actions are sins and following god's plan, or would it be better spent living your own life to it's fullest? Sure, some of you may actually believe that it's your calling to do what you do, but what if it's all for nothing?

Boom!

 

[Chris0nllyn]

This is super-secret code for: "I'm about to intentionally insult you, but I don't want it to appear like it's intentional"

Believe it or not, some of us came to God through "facts" and "logic".

So, no offense, but I think you're full of ####.

(No, I'm not going to explain myself - It's something I came to over the course of many agnostic years, so it's not something I'm interested in briefly and superficially bandying about here - and I seriously doubt you'd be honestly open to anything I had to say anyway)

Nothing about religion is factual. there's nothign factual about an imaginary person in the sky watching over every single person in the universe.

There's nothing factual about praying to cure cancer, or for it to rain, or any other cause obviously associated with solid scientific research and fact. The same research and fact many Christians rely on throughout their daily lives, whether they like it (or realize it) or not.

I truely meant "no offense" because I realize this is a hot topic and people truely believe there's a higher power and I hope that one can take my statements and not truley take offense. I was mistaken, apparently.

To your last point, I enjoy learning. I attend church (sometimes) because I am curious about religion in general. So, you can choose to beleiev that I've got my head in the sand about the issues here, but the reality is, I've have conversations on the subject, and I specifically recall conversing with Psy about it. At that time, I specifically mentioned that while Science has proved a miriad of things, it has not proven where our feelings of love, envy, and the like have come from. Some things science simply can't explain and I acknowledge that, but I don't believe that comes from a hgher power without some sort of evidence. Evidence I've yet to see from anyone.

You're familiar with Pascal's Wager?

If we're wrong, then.... so what?

If I saw no signs of a divinity, I would fix myself in denial. If I saw everywhere the marks of a Creator, I would repose peacefully in faith. But seeing too much to deny Him, and too little to assure me, I am in a pitiful state, and I would wish a hundred times that if a god sustains nature it would reveal Him without ambiguity. - Pascal

If I am wrong, I'm faithful that I lived a fantastic life just the way I wanted without fear that a mythical man was watching over my shoulder all the time and can decide my eternal fate.


I wish I could believe this.

Honestly.
The concept of dying and then ceasing to exist is attractive to me, compared to the concept of eternal life.

I have pondered the concept of eternity, at length, and the concept is unbelievably terrifying.

Seriously terrifying. It terrifies me. It's one of the few things that actually scares me.

Even if it's pleasant - even if it's the paradise we all hope it is.... Just sit back and think about how long "forever" is. The very idea is incomprehensible to the mind.

I'm open to the possibility (probability) that the transformation that occurs upon death removes the chill from this idea, but that's not very comforting to me.

Eternity is terrifying, but the earth is not eternally old, nor is Jesus, so how can we even begin to comprehend eternity?

Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe that men are decendants of apes? If that's the case, then man is simply an animal, in general terms, correct? It's either that, or do you believe that god mad a man, then used his rib to create a woman out of thin air, and chose to only do it a few thousand years ago?

Again, who cares. In the end it won't matter if it was a waste. How many billions of people are currently dead with nothing to even show they were here.

I don't really care. I don't care what peopel do, nor believe, I was just asking a question.

Billions dead with no evidence of an afterlife. I'll take my chances.

 

[Toxick]

I ####ing hate inlining within quotes.

Nothing about religion is factual. there's nothign factual about an imaginary person in the sky watching over every single person in the universe.

Which is exactly what I do not intend to argue the subject with you. I had no illusion that you would take me at my word, and honestly - I don't much care. As I indicated earlier in this thread, proselytizing in this day and age is a useless endeavor.

I truely meant "no offense" because I realize this is a hot topic and people truely believe there's a higher power and I hope that one can take my statements and not truley take offense. I was mistaken, apparently.

You did not offend me. I don't care if you offended anyone else.

I think that my point, more or less, is that when you state absolutely "Nothing about religion is factual", you're doing the exact same thing as a religious person who says "Everything about (my) religion is factual". Although atheists will vehemently deny it, atheism is no less a religion than theism, and the zealotry is no less apparent.

To your last point, I enjoy learning. I attend church (sometimes) because I am curious about religion in general. So, you can choose to beleiev that I've got my head in the sand about the issues here, but the reality is, I've have conversations on the subject, and I specifically recall conversing with Psy about it. At that time, I specifically mentioned that while Science has proved a miriad of things, it has not proven where our feelings of love, envy, and the like have come from. Some things science simply can't explain and I acknowledge that, but I don't believe that comes from a hgher power without some sort of evidence. Evidence I've yet to see from anyone.

I didn't say you had your head in the sand, but if you're going to pretend that you're not close-minded on the subject - especially after I just read the above post, and the unwavering declarations it contains - then we really have nothing left about this subject to talk about.

And science is simply a body of knowledge. If "science" can't explain something, it merely means the explanation has not yet been found. Science can - and eventually will - explain everything. While I believe in God, I do not believe He works outside of the laws of nature.

If I saw no signs of a divinity, I would fix myself in denial. If I saw everywhere the marks of a Creator, I would repose peacefully in faith. But seeing too much to deny Him, and too little to assure me, I am in a pitiful state, and I would wish a hundred times that if a god sustains nature it would reveal Him without ambiguity. - Pascal

That's not Pascal's wager.

Pascal's wager is often represented with a boolean chart, but it boils down to this:

A) If there is a God, and I don't believe, I will go to Hell.
B) If there is a God, and I believe, I will go to Heaven.
C) If there is no God, and I don't believe, doesn't matter.
D) If there is no God and I do believe, doesn't matter.
Of those four results, B is most desirable.

As a counterpoint to what you were saying D, isn't really that bad.

Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe that men are decendants of apes?

I do.

I believe that much of The Book of Genesis is allegorical.








The purist doctrine that "you can't pick and choose what you believe" is horse####.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's not Pascal's wager.

Pascal's wager is often represented with a boolean chart, but it boils down to this:

A) If there is a God, and I don't believe, I will go to Hell.
B) If there is a God, and I believe, I will go to Heaven.
C) If there is no God, and I don't believe, doesn't matter.
D) If there is no God and I do believe, doesn't matter.
Of those four results, B is most desirable.

As a counterpoint to what you were saying D, isn't really that bad.

.

Ok but, besides the assumption that God exists in A and B, Pascal also posits that Heaven is wonderful and Hell is awful, another act of faith, and does not include ANY cost of potentially spending a lifetime of believing in something that may turn out not to exist. B is only most desirable if you believe in God AND he turns out to exist AND heaven is just great. And A is only bad if Hell is, what, worse than the pains of life? C could very well be the path to a fun life. D makes the assumption there is no negative to a Godly life if there is no God.

 

[Toxick]

C could very well be the path to a fun life. D makes the assumption there is no negative to a Godly life if there is no God.

And you appear to be making the assumption (or at least implication) that a fun life and a Godly life are mutually exclusive.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I think that my point, more or less, is that when you state absolutely "Nothing about religion is factual", you're doing the exact same thing as a religious person who says "Everything about (my) religion is factual". Although atheists will vehemently deny it, atheism is no less a religion than theism, and the zealotry is no less apparent.

Granted "No religion can be proven to be factual" may have been a better phrasing than "Nothing about religion is factual". There is an obvious distinction between the metaphysical and 'factual' reality. Until there is proof that Christianity is the one true religion, it must be placed in the same non-factual category with all other religions and all other gods thought up by man in the course of human history. Many religions include virgin births, miracles, resurrections. Christianity is not special in this regard.

Regarding "atheism is no less a religion than theism"....seriously? Perhaps you would like to further expound on how the absence of religion is somehow equivalent to religion? Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position.

 

[Radiant1]

Regarding "atheism is no less a religion than theism"....seriously? Perhaps you would like to further expound on how the absence of religion is somehow equivalent to religion? Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position.

Not a religion in it's strictest definition, but Atheists sure do seem to participate in apologetics for Atheism and spend, what seems to me, an inordinate amount of time on religious forums/lists/etc proseltyzing for their "faith"(?), "philosophy"(?), whatever you prefer to call it, and seem to worship the entity of science.

When I see Atheists come into the religion forum here I think to myself, "Oh good Lord, here they come". It's no different than the bible-thumping fundies who want to cram their version of scripture down my throat. I dislike you both equally.

Oh and btw, Buddhism is godless and not a religion per se but everyone groups it as such, so get over it you Atheistic proseltyzing zealot.

 

[Larry Gude]

And you appear to be making the assumption (or at least implication) that a fun life and a Godly life are mutually exclusive.

No, not, not at all. I am simply challenging that assertion which is central to the wager. I am perfectly willing to accept that the wager is correct and that B is the best choice. But, I am not a believer so, naturally, I weigh the costs, potential costs, of that being 'best'. Again, I am a Christian and side with them, us. My issue here, again, is the diminishing of the faith, especially in light of the onslaught of Islam; we're losing. That is bad for my nation, my people and my right to be an agnostic as well as my right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Someone whose judgment leads them to feel their faith is threatened and betrayed by baking someone else a cake, that, ultimately, is bad for me if that guy is part of the fabric of what stands between liberty and tyranny.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Oh and btw, Buddhism is godless and not a religion per se but everyone groups it as such, so get over it you Atheistic proseltyzing zealot.

Whatever, call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner. Religious dogma has you believing that you are eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood when you partake in the Eucharist.
Personally, If I were that insane, I'd rather hope that I could come up with something more fun, - like saying prayers over my pancakes would actually turn them into the body of Elvis.

I'll stick with my sanity and Atheism, and besides, it requires so very little of my time.

And realize you are an Atheist too with respect to all other religions. I just happen to believe in one less religion than you do.

 

[Toxick]

Regarding "atheism is no less a religion than theism"....seriously?

Seriously.

Perhaps you would like to further expound on how the absence of religion is somehow equivalent to religion?

Ok.

First of all, it's not the "absence of a religion". It's the absence of the belief in a deity. For most atheists, it's an active belief that there is no god. (This is subtly distinct from "lack of belief", but very real and very prominent). But just because your religion isn't centralized around a deity, makes it no less of one. Confusionism, Taoism, Buddhism, Shintoism - none of these religions have a deity.

Also, atheists are absolutely and unwaveringly convinced of their own correctness.
They enjoy telling people about what they believe.
They really seem to enjoy trying to convince others that their way is the correct one, even going so far as advertising on billboards, buses, in subway stations, newspaper ads, and so on.


In what way is it NOT a religion.

Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position.

Maybe the worst comparison I've ever heard.

 

[Radiant1]

Whatever, call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner. Religious dogma has you believing that you are eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood when you partake in the Eucharist.

You weren't around when I previously made it public but it's not religious dogma that makes me believe.

Personally, If I were that insane, I'd rather hope that I could come up with something more fun, - like saying prayers over my pancakes would actually turn them into the body of Elvis.

Go figure, and here I thought eating a zombie god was fun enough.

I'll stick with my sanity and Atheism, and besides, it requires so very little of my time.

By all means stick with it. As long as you're not trying to cram it down my throat, I could give two shits less. :shrug:

For something that requires so little of your time, you sure do spend enough of it trying to convince others and taking the time to throw insults as well.

Btw, your sanity was in question when you posted in your sub-Sahara African AIDS thread. The founding member of NAMBLA was an atheist. Do you think he was sane too?

And realize you are an Atheist too with respect to all other religions. I just happen to believe in one less religion than you do.

No, I'm not. You're making a grandiose assumption about what I actually believe.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

In what way is it NOT a religion.

Here's a few ways to consider...

There is no Bible of Atheism.

There are no writings or scriptures written long ago, telling one how to be an Atheist.

There are no God(s) of Atheism.

There are no rituals of Atheism.

Atheists do not make unjustifiable claims about the cosmos or human evolution based on bronze age scriptural writings.

An Atheist realizes that the existence of a supernatural cannot be disproved. I may say that I am 99.9999% convinced that no God(s) exist and prefer to live my life based on this and other probabilities of a reality based world, not a metaphysically based one.

Only religious types make claims of certainty regarding their religion and their God. A claim that many are willing to die for, and to kill others for.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

No, I'm not. You're making a grandiose assumption about what I actually believe.

A simple assumption, not a grandiose one. You self-identify as Catholic, therefore, you do not believe in Islam for example. That makes you an Atheist with respect to Islam. You are 100% convinced that the Bible is the one true word of the creator of the universe and that the Koran is false. Muslims are 100% convinced the Koran is, and that you're going to hell.

Religion deserves our ridicule in the 21st century. It erodes our collective intelligence as a nation. And worse, it threatens our stability and future prosperity as a nation. Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same coin. Both are complicit in threatening the stability of the world. When humans believe they are justified killing others in the name of their God, it doesn't bode well for humanity.

There is no question that our stature has been eroding in the eyes of the developed world, in large part due to our Christian culture (and fanatical beliefs that have spread into government). Countries like Sweden, Switzerland, and many developed countries of the world are in the process of chucking religion into the dust-bin of history. These same countries are far ahead of the United States in education, health, and happiness, and overall stability and well-being.

We somehow think we are still exceptional as a Nation. Teaching creationism in our schools makes us no better than the Taliban who teach exactly the same thing to their children. Our European allies are concerned with our great military might combined with our religiosity. As well they should be.

 

[Radiant1]

No, I'm still not, and that's a mighty fine stump you gave yourself.

 

[Larry Gude]

Religion deserves our ridicule in the 21st century. It erodes our collective intelligence as a nation. And worse, it threatens our stability and future prosperity as a nation. Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same coin. Both are complicit in threatening the stability of the world. When humans believe they are justified killing others in the name of their God, it doesn't bode well for humanity. .

That view leaves out an enormous 'what if'.

It is little more than an observation to say that religion always has played a central role in civilization. Call it what you will; the desire for faith, organizing principles for community, hocus pocus. The simple fact of the matter is that civilization at the most basic level requires agreement and cooperation and that has to be based on something. Even when it was based on brute force, pack, animal force, hardly what anyone would call 'civilized', faith still emerges to advance the civilization beyond 'do as I say'. Even the most brutish organizing principle in mankinds history, communism, is based on faith.

From there, religions come and go and, over time, things boiled down to what we have today. While, to an atheist, no religion sounds good, it ignores the reality that absent ANY dominant religion, a new one WILL replace it. Christianity is being replaced by worship of corporations in the US and much of the West. They are the dominant faiths and, if that sounds absurd, it is only by dismissing faith, any faith, as an organizing principle.

While it is certainly fair and reasonable to say that teaching one set of principles is equivalent to teaching another, that is, by no means, the same as saying they are of equal value. Given the choice between the teachings of Christ or Mohamed, I'll take the former. You may argue you'd choose neither and, as a free autonomous individual, you can, in this Christian nation, choose that course. But, you're simply choosing, whether you acknowledge it or not, whatever faith you happen to think is better. You can prove this to yourself by simply considering your views of right and wrong and what those views are based on. The point is that Christianity has allowed for that over time. If it dies, something else will replace it and I am not in favor of that being Islam. I do not consider the two equivalent. I think Christianity has, demonstrably, to have made us much better.

If you disagree, you and I could be having this conversation in public anywhere in the US and all of the Western world. Is there one place we could be having it in Muslim lands?

 

[Larry Gude]

Here's a few ways to consider...

There is no Bible of Atheism.

There are no writings or scriptures written long ago, telling one how to be an Atheist.

There are no God(s) of Atheism.

There are no rituals of Atheism.

Atheists do not make unjustifiable claims about the cosmos or human evolution based on bronze age scriptural writings.

An Atheist realizes that the existence of a supernatural cannot be disproved. I may say that I am 99.9999% convinced that no God(s) exist and prefer to live my life based on this and other probabilities of a reality based world, not a metaphysically based one.

Only religious types make claims of certainty regarding their religion and their God. A claim that many are willing to die for, and to kill others for.

What do you base your ideas of right and wrong on? Why do you believe they are correct?

 

[Larry Gude]

I wish I could believe this.

Honestly.
The concept of dying and then ceasing to exist is attractive to me, compared to the concept of eternal life.

I have pondered the concept of eternity, at length, and the concept is unbelievably terrifying.




Seriously terrifying. It terrifies me. It's one of the few things that actually scares me.

Even if it's pleasant - even if it's the paradise we all hope it is.... Just sit back and think about how long "forever" is. The very idea is incomprehensible to the mind.




I'm open to the possibility (probability) that the transformation that occurs upon death removes the chill from this idea, but that's not very comforting to me.




Again, who cares. In the end it won't matter if it was a waste. How many billions of people are currently dead with nothing to even show they were here.

That is interesting. The concept of an afterlife doesn't scare me in the least as, by definition, it is, as you say incomprehensible to us as living human beings. I mean, if you were to think eternal afterlife is sitting in front of a broken TV and that is all there is, forever, OK, I get being terrified of that in theory but, again, that is looking at it in context of being a live person. To me, a life ending is like a battery dying. That energy went somewhere but, it is no longer in a usable state AS PER what a battery is and can be used for or what it can do.

From there, the possibilities are endless. Rebirth? Maybe. Come back as a plant? An animal? A blinking light on the printer? A gas? Point being, if we assume and accept that being human is, at core, simply a state of energy, WHATEVER happens, heaven, hell, nothing, it CAN'T be in context of being stuck, forever, in front of a broken TV because no matter what happens it is not comprehensible to us in the state we are in when we are alive.

Of course, I can imagine someone terrified of that, truly, literally, and spending every ounce of energy on self preservation to avoid it as long as possible but, even that person WILL, eventually, become exhausted and die. So, that seems a waste of time. But, hey what do I, truly, know? Even if it IS sitting in front of a broken TV, for all eternity, the last thing I care about is pondering something like that that I have zero choice in anyway. Death is in my future, somewhere. I'm just happily busy trying to figure out each day let alone eternity.

 

[Toxick]

There is no Bible of Atheism.

There are no writings or scriptures written long ago, telling one how to be an Atheist.

Literature is not a necessary characteristic of a religion. While some religions have these, not all of them do.

There are no God(s) of Atheism.

I've already addressed this, my point appears to have been ignored or disregarded.

There are no rituals of Atheism.

Atheists do not make unjustifiable claims about the cosmos or human evolution based on bronze age scriptural writings.

An Atheist realizes that the existence of a supernatural cannot be disproved. I may say that I am 99.9999% convinced that no God(s) exist and prefer to live my life based on this and other probabilities of a reality based world, not a metaphysically based one.

While these may be valid points while arguing in favor of atheism, none of them makes your belief system any more or less of a religion.


BTW: Theists also realize that the existence of a deity is not disprovable. Many rely on this as proof of a deity in and of itself, or to stymie discussion. I usually avoid this particular crutch, and it makes me cringe when they use it. Believe it or not I am a scientist and I realize that by virtue of the scientific method one is not required to prove a negative.

Only religious types make claims of certainty regarding their religion and their God.

Ok.

A claim that many are willing to die for, and to kill others for.

Again.... an argument you may use while trying to convince others to join your religion, but does not un-define it as a religion. I'm also thinking that you're conflating "Religion" and "Organized Religion".

 

[Toxick]

That is interesting. The concept of an afterlife doesn't scare me in the least as, by definition, it is, as you say incomprehensible to us as living human beings. I mean, if you were to think eternal afterlife is sitting in front of a broken TV and that is all there is, forever, OK, I get being terrified of that in theory but, again, that is looking at it in context of being a live person.

No, I don't believe the afterlife is like sitting in front of a broken television, or an equally vapid experience. I also don't believe it's clouds and harps and wings..... If it were, I'd find the nearest cloud and jump off of it.

Whatever it is, when I try to imagine it... I picture the concept of eternity as a physical dimension rather than a temporal one. Then I picture the most vast thing I can think of, as huge and expansive as my mind can fathom..... Then I compress it to a mote and imagine a size relative in vastness to that mote. And then again... and again... and again... and again...

Then I apply that to time and then I imagine that I have to pass that time.







And then I consider the human lifespan compared to that unending vast eternity and it makes this life completely and thoroughly pointless.

Excuse me. I'm going to go curl up in a fetal position for a while.