What Is Mormonism? A Baptist Answer

[tommyjones]

I've got to get back to what I'm actually paid to do.... but I will close on what will make all of us right on this site....

I find myself dead and food for worms (if that be possible of course - finding myself): I can say, darn... I wish I would have eaten, drank, and been more merry.

I find myself in hell... darn, I wish I would have listened to that crackpot foolish person who said "Jesus is the only way"..... OR

I find myself in heaven... man, I'm glad God redeemed me by His grace!

Let's all pick one, shall we? [Or maybe there are other ways to find ourselves at the end...]

well there are lots of other ways to find yourself.....

how about, you dont believe, but live your life in a just way, there turns out to be a god and he judges you on your merits.

or, you believe, but live your live full of prejudice and hate thinking you are living in god's light, and god judges you in the end.

then there are the taoist and hindu and other ways to find yourself.

there are lots of beliefs, the one that rings true for you may not be right for others, but noone can know. it doesn't matter what book you use, none can know

 

[fredcaudle]

Ok so when the Bible talks about Lamech, and his 2 wives, its doign so in a Negative light

When the Bible talks about Abraham his conubines (notice the s?) and living 175 years, its Negative

And 40 year old Essau taking 2 wives

Nevermind that Deuteronomy 21 has a whole list of rules about having 2 wives (one loved one hated )

When the parable turned to Elkanah being a good follower of the Lord, and having 2 wives, it was negative?

When Chronicles discusses Ashur, and his 2 wives, it was negative? (it was convoluted)

When the Bible talks about Abijah, and his 14 wives, who had a son Asa who destroyed the temples of other gods and forbade their worship which was Good in the Eyes of the Lord, that was bad?

Ok so when the Bible talks about Lamech, and his 2 wives, its doign so in a Negative light?
Yes, what good was listed specifically from coming from man's desire to have two wives?... and if you find that verse, can you find the verse that would show why God did not "favor" it?

When the Bible talks about Abraham his conubines (notice the s?) and living 175 years, its Negative? Anybody read what happened in Abraham's marriage during the time he slept with his concubine? Supper time was not pleasant, nor the rivalry in his marriage he caused (not God) by having more than one. (Let's don't forget the two sons and the what took place...)

And 40 year old Essau taking 2 wives? Re-read beyond your favorite verse. The Bible is a whole work, not an individual verse of pleasure.

Nevermind that Deuteronomy 21 has a whole list of rules about having 2 wives (one loved one hated ) The Bible has a rule about stealing... does that mean God endorces it or does it simply says here's whats going to happen and since you are this way... you must do this?

When the parable turned to Elkanah being a good follower of the Lord, and having 2 wives, it was negative?
You tell me, what does all the Scripture say? I know the story and what is being shown to one who believes God's way... do you? Being a good follower of the Lord does not mean one in flesh has become perfect before God.

When Chronicles discusses Ashur, and his 2 wives, it was negative? (it was convoluted) Same response, have you read more than just your favorite verse there?

When the Bible talks about Abijah, and his 14 wives, who had a son Asa who destroyed the temples of other gods and forbade their worship which was Good in the Eyes of the Lord, that was bad? Bad for the multiple wives?
Yes, multiple wives not good. Can God take man's weaknesses and turn them into His glory? Yes... God used his son to destroy the false god's that were causing men to rebel against God. I wonder what idols we shook take down in our culture/society that leads us away to question God?

 

[fredcaudle]

So you want to hedge your bets?

What your describing is Pascals Wager. So your no different than Benny in the Mummy?

You better get busy, there are alot of other religions you need to get versed in, just in case.

I've been busy... I was just being tolerant of others. I've "hedged" my bets... if I'm wrong, I have no worries. How bout you?

 

[fredcaudle]

I'm worm food remember?

I love your conviction... and I say that with no ill intent!

 

[tommyjones]

The Bible has a rule about stealing... does that mean God endorces it or does it simply says here's whats going to happen and since you are this way... you must do this?

thats one of the 'thou shalt nots'

so its not really in question.

where is the thou shalt not have more than one wife?

as nuckle said, there are many men who have multiple wives whose stories are told, but the stories aren't about this, they are basically unrelated to it

 

[fredcaudle]

thats one of the 'thou shalt nots'

so its not really in question.

where is the thou shalt not have more than one wife?

as nuckle said, there are many men who have multiple wives whose stories are told, but the stories aren't about this, they are basically unrelated to it

I'm going to give the answer on this circular question. The Scripture I give has already been seen as foolish in previous messages. The "thou shalt nots" is not the only law... but "everyword that proceeds from the mouth of God." "If you love me [both God and Jesus said the same obviously]... you will obey me."

Read Genesis 2.18, 23, 24. Then consider Proverbs 18.22 "He who finds a wife (note singular in Hebrew) finds what is good and RECEIVES FAVOR FROM THE LORD."

These verses don't answer your question, because you don't see Scripture as authority... you see it as man made, and man thought up. If you truly believe this (man made) then why in the world keep questioning something you have no care to know? If you are trying to make my belief foolish because of your intolerance to what I believe... the Scripture already says that (because of my belief in Scripture) I preach foolishness to man.

Wisdom of God is foolishnes to man and man's wisdom to God is foolishness (Scripture says, not my originality). Start sharing your answers to all these questions without any reference to God or gods and you will find how far your answers go. For each has made up his own mind. (i.e. why does man want more than one wife... is this good to man and woman... why or why not? And how do we know when it is good to change and start doing it? Again, no religious answers... just man thinking answers and let see how far we can get.

 

[tommyjones]

I'm going to give the answer on this circular question. The Scripture I give has already been seen as foolish in previous messages. The "thou shalt nots" is not the only law... but "everyword that proceeds from the mouth of God." "If you love me [both God and Jesus said the same obviously]... you will obey me."

Read Genesis 2.18, 23, 24. Then consider Proverbs 18.22 "He who finds a wife (note singular in Hebrew) finds what is good and RECEIVES FAVOR FROM THE LORD."

These verses don't answer your question, because you don't see Scripture as authority... you see it as man made, and man thought up. If you truly believe this (man made) then why in the world keep questioning something you have no care to know? If you are trying to make my belief foolish because of your intolerance to what I believe... the Scripture already says that (because of my belief in Scripture) I preach foolishness to man.

Wisdom of God is foolishnes to man and man's wisdom to God is foolishness (Scripture says, not my originality). Start sharing your answers to all these questions without any reference to God or gods and you will find how far your answers go. For each has made up his own mind. (i.e. why does man want more than one wife... is this good to man and woman... why or why not? And how do we know when it is good to change and start doing it? Again, no religious answers... just man thinking answers and let see how far we can get.

you still haven't shown where it says plural marriges are wrong in the eyes of the lord. only that its good to have a wife.


the answer to the question with out god or religion is simple:

Most men can barely put up with 1 woman(same for women of men), why would you want to deal with more than one at a time?

 

[fredcaudle]

you still haven't shown where it says plural marriges are wrong in the eyes of the lord. only that its good to have a wife.


the answer to the question with out god or religion is simple:

Most men can barely put up with 1 woman(same for women of men), why would you want to deal with more than one at a time?

re-read the verse, it didn't say "its good to have a wife" the verses said more...

Most men... okay... now answer the minority men question. The men that want to deal with more than one at a time... it is still going on in society today (maybe not prominent in our country) but we all evolved from the same source... so how do you answer that?

 

[tommyjones]

re-read the verse, it didn't say "its good to have a wife" the verses said more...

Most men... okay... now answer the minority men question. The men that want to deal with more than one at a time... it is still going on in society today (maybe not prominent in our country) but we all evolved from the same source... so how do you answer that?

i dont need to, if you or anyone else wants to have 30 brides as long as they are all into it and of age i have no problem with it.

as for the scripture:
Read Genesis 2.18, 23, 24. Then consider Proverbs 18.22 "He who finds a wife (note it does not say just one- which considering the common practice of having many at the time you would have thought it would be spelled out if that is what was intended) finds what is good and RECEIVES FAVOR FROM THE LORD."


that is a matter of interpretation, i say it certainly doesn't disuade anyone from multiples in that verse.

 

[fredcaudle]

i dont need to, if you or anyone else wants to have 30 brides as long as they are all into it and of age i have no problem with it.

as for the scripture:
Read Genesis 2.18, 23, 24. Then consider Proverbs 18.22 "He who finds a wife (note it does not say just one- which considering the common practice of having many at the time you would have thought it would be spelled out if that is what was intended) finds what is good and RECEIVES FAVOR FROM THE LORD."


that is a matter of interpretation, i say it certainly doesn't disuade anyone from multiples in that verse.

You have no problem... but men (many non-religious) lock them up for such behavior at least in our country. And, I'm sure women are not crazy about being concubines to men... why not (without religion as a criterion) have women have a bunch of men husbands? And by the way, what authority says "of age"... that can change with society and times (which it already has in history). How does no religion address these societal concerns? (Don't say only religous have these concerns... that is escaping and not true.)

Favor with God is meaningful to someone who understands why the Bible exists and what God is saying here, but not to those who find fault with the Bible. God is not a God of culture... He IS God... not limited to our wants and desires, but a God demonstrating His love to conform us to Him.

Scripture never disuades a man from sinful activity... because we would rather interpret than listen to Scripture so that we can be who we want to be. To follow Jesus we must lay down our life (give up our wants/desires) and follow Him. [Scripture, not original with me]

 

[tommyjones]

You have no problem... but men (many non-religious) lock them up for such behavior at least in our country. And, I'm sure women are not crazy about being concubines to men... why not (without religion as a criterion) have women have a bunch of men husbands? And by the way, what authority says "of age"... that can change with society and times (which it already has in history). How does no religion address these societal concerns? (Don't say only religous have these concerns... that is escaping and not true.)

we have many laws that protect the inoccent, these laws change with the times as we become more enlightened. just as the laws of slavery did.

Favor with God is meaningful to someone who understands why the Bible exists and what God is saying here, but not to those who find fault with the Bible. God is not a God of culture... He IS God... not limited to our wants and desires, but a God demonstrating His love to conform us to Him.

well then show where its says god would not give favor to men with more than one wife.

Scripture never disuades a man from sinful activity..

So the ten commandments were not intended to tell us how NOT to act?

sure seems like they were to me

 

[fredcaudle]

we have many laws that protect the inoccent, these laws change with the times as we become more enlightened. just as the laws of slavery did.
- I sure hope everyone who suffered the inhumanity of slavery is ok with waiting until we become more enlightened!

well then show where its says god would not give favor to men with more than one wife.
- You have seen and don't accept... not running the circle on this anymore... go for whatever pleases you to believe as I am pleased in my beliefs.

So the ten commandments were not intended to tell us how NOT to act?
Yes, but man ignores them... Scripture can't enforce your actions... You emphasized NOT, why? You are not religious... why do laws exist if we are not accountable to a higher authority? I know, because we want to be good... however, Hitler thought he was good... polygamists think they are good... It is foolish to say that a book made by man can tell us how to NOT act when it was written over such a long time ago... isn't that what you believe? How about the Constitution... who says those guys were right for all of eternity? Who's claiming authority to verify such a document? Weren't some of them slave owners... did they know "best" for all mankind at the time they existed?

(for those who are religious, forgive me for continuing to run circles here... but all religion is bad from these type of messages posted, yet we never hear the non-religious FULL answer. Only disputes about what has already been professed we believe. Debate is showing both sides... show me your non-religious side and talk it all the way through without bringing up religion... I'm curious if it is even possible...)

 

[tommyjones]

we have many laws that protect the inoccent, these laws change with the times as we become more enlightened. just as the laws of slavery did.
- I sure hope everyone who suffered the inhumanity of slavery is ok with waiting until we become more enlightened!

well then show where its says god would not give favor to men with more than one wife.
- You have seen and don't accept... not running the circle on this anymore... go for whatever pleases you to believe as I am pleased in my beliefs.

So the ten commandments were not intended to tell us how NOT to act?
Yes, but man ignores them... Scripture can't enforce your actions... You emphasized NOT, why? You are not religious... why do laws exist if we are not accountable to a higher authority? I know, because we want to be good... however, Hitler thought he was good... polygamists think they are good... It is foolish to say that a book made by man can tell us how to NOT act when it was written over such a long time ago... isn't that what you believe? How about the Constitution... who says those guys were right for all of eternity? Who's claiming authority to verify such a document? Weren't some of them slave owners... did they know "best" for all mankind at the time they existed?

(for those who are religious, forgive me for continuing to run circles here... but all religion is bad from these type of messages posted, yet we never hear the non-religious FULL answer. Only disputes about what has already been professed we believe. Debate is showing both sides... show me your non-religious side and talk it all the way through without bringing up religion... I'm curious if it is even possible...)

you are the one running in circles, not me, i have answered your questions, you choose not to accept becasue they dont fit your religious mold.


as for the constitution, we have these little things called amendments that ensure that as our nation becomes more enlightened the constitution reflects it.
How was slavery banned?
how about women being given the right to vote?

 

[fredcaudle]

you are the one running in circles, not me, i have answered your questions, you choose not to accept becasue they dont fit your religious mold.


as for the constitution, we have these little things called amendments that ensure that as our nation becomes more enlightened the constitution reflects it.
How was slavery banned?
how about women being given the right to vote?

It's not my religious mold... I'm have not heard anything but, "when we all get enlightend" - good message to children getting killed in schools, "buck up little ones... one day we won't get shot in school, or we will find out in the future is was ok to do such a thing"

By a group of people who got "enllightened" I guess... sure takes mankind a long time to get it right. (Don't reply back with "what about your God.... tell me about your answers, how can this change... how can we get better while waiting to be enlightened [without religion or a god]... and don't give the stupid answer, "get rid of religious people" because those are some of the ones on the front lines for human rights.)

 

[tommyjones]

It's not my religious mold... I'm have not heard anything but, "when we all get enlightend" - good message to children getting killed in schools, "buck up little ones... one day we won't get shot in school, or we will find out in the future is was ok to do such a thing"

By a group of people who got "enllightened" I guess... sure takes mankind a long time to get it right. (Don't reply back with "what about your God.... tell me about your answers, how can this change... how can we get better while waiting to be enlightened [without religion or a god]... and don't give the stupid answer, "get rid of religious people" because those are some of the ones on the front lines for human rights.)

its a more realistic answer than you are giving.

what does your religious message do for those getting killed in schools- nothin'


also, those religious folks have also been some of the most vocal ones holding back human rights. ever hear of the KKK- christain based, how about hitler- used god to justify his beliefs, and all those bible thumpers that quote passages to justify their fear and hate of the 'other', and how many religions say all men are equal, but in reality dont afford women the same rights?

yeah, i'll take enlightenment over blindly following anyday

 

[Midnightrider]

It's not my religious mold... I'm have not heard anything but, "when we all get enlightend" - good message to children getting killed in schools, "buck up little ones... one day we won't get shot in school, or we will find out in the future is was ok to do such a thing"

exactly what does christianity do for those kids who get shot in school?

other than say, if you didn't accept jesus before you were killed, go to hell!!!

 

[itsbob]

It's not my religious mold... I'm have not heard anything but, "when we all get enlightend" - good message to children getting killed in schools, "buck up little ones... one day we won't get shot in school, or we will find out in the future is was ok to do such a thing"

By a group of people who got "enllightened" I guess... sure takes mankind a long time to get it right. (Don't reply back with "what about your God.... tell me about your answers, how can this change... how can we get better while waiting to be enlightened [without religion or a god]... and don't give the stupid answer, "get rid of religious people" because those are some of the ones on the front lines for human rights.)

the Muslims are "religous people"... And they kill and die for their religion..

All because we (you and I) don't believe what they believe..

Pointing fingers "You AREN'T like us!!"

 

[fredcaudle]

exactly what does christianity do for those kids who get shot in school?

other than say, if you didn't accept jesus before you were killed, go to hell!!!

okay... so that is my supposed message... didn't hear any brilliance from you? What say you without any religion or reference to go or spiritual matters.... what can non-religion do for us?

 

[fredcaudle]

the Muslims are "religous people"... And they kill and die for their religion..

All because we (you and I) don't believe what they believe..

Pointing fingers "You AREN'T like us!!"

all good arguments against religion I suppose... do not non-religious people have anything to offer us as pearls of wisdom... or do all you know is how to argue against me?

Would love to see some pearls of wisdom without any reference to what I or others believe... is it possible to actually happen?????

 

[fredcaudle]

exactly what does christianity do for those kids who get shot in school?

other than say, if you didn't accept jesus before you were killed, go to hell!!!

nothing.. .now what do you offer for help? More arguments???? Any wisdom out there from a non-religious point of view?