When someone tells you..

[vraiblonde]

Satan was an Archangel (Lucifer) who believed his God given power entitled him to more. He was cast out of Heaven when his rebellion failed.

Why wouldn't God have just destroyed him? If someone were threatening your loved ones and you had the power to make them disappear, wouldn't you? Or would you say, "Evil is good for you, children. I'm going to kill all these people in Sudan, but Satan? He gets to live forever."

 

[camily]

Why do you need something to compare it to? Why can't it just be?

Maybe compare is a bad word. Health would not exist without sickness. How would one know what health was if there was no sickness? I would just be, and we could not appreciate it. Does that make sense? I'm not good at this.

 

[camily]

Why wouldn't God have just destroyed him? If someone were threatening your loved ones and you had the power to make them disappear, wouldn't you? Or would you say, "Evil is good for you, children. I'm going to kill all these people in Sudan, but Satan? He gets to live forever."

I guess because it gives us choice between good and evil. If we choose good we are following Him. Then again, I really can't answer for God.

 

[vraiblonde]

Does that make sense?

Not really. I've never been really sick and I appreciate it - I don't need to experience pain to appreciate pleasure.

 

[camily]

Not really. I've never been really sick and I appreciate it - I don't need to experience pain to appreciate pleasure.

My point is that the idea of pleasure would be moot if there was no opposite. You only know short because there is tall. You only know happy because there is sad. I didn't mean you appreciate sick, I meant you appreciate health because you know sick.

 

[wxtornado]

I guess because it gives us choice between good and evil. If we choose good we are following Him. Then again, I really can't answer for God.

Do we really have a "choice" though before an all-knowing God?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I think the problem with the argument comes from the very question itself: Evil is not incompatible with God's existence, but it is incompatible with the claim God is omnibenevolent. But a God who is not omnibenevolent would be totally capable of creating elements of evil. Indeed, as the creator of Satan, God is directly responsible for evil's existence. The problem is, this makes him -- by definition -- no longer "all good" -- and people balk at the idea of worshipping a God with demonstrably evil characteristics.

I have never seen the claim in the Bible that God is omni-benevolent. Quite the opposite. God is said by the Bible to be a loving Father, an exacting task master, vengeful God, a punisher of evil doers, a benefactor to those that love Him, provider to those that love Him. No where I've seen does it say "omni-benevolent."

A good parent loves, corrects, expects the best of, gives and provides for, and protects (vengefulness) their child. God exhibits these qualities. That is not exhibiting evil characteristics.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Why wouldn't God have just destroyed him? If someone were threatening your loved ones and you had the power to make them disappear, wouldn't you? Or would you say, "Evil is good for you, children. I'm going to kill all these people in Sudan, but Satan? He gets to live forever."

Satan will live forever in the lake of fire eventually. I just don't want to join him.

God creates all. God could let us all win the lottery; we'd each get $17.43 like in "Almighty Bruce." Would anyone be happy? No. People want to win the lottery in order to be better off than anyone else or at least most. certainly better off than they are now. Faith in money for happiness.

The poor of the world are our opportunity to show compassion for our fellow man. Give to the best of your ability to help others that are less fortunate than you. Jesus said that we would always have the poor or needy with us. They are our opportunity to shine as a person that cares about someone other than self.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Do we really have a "choice" though before an all-knowing God?

Yes. We have free will, so we have choice.

 

[vraiblonde]

The poor of the world are our opportunity to show compassion for our fellow man.

Well, that's awful nice of poor people to take one for the team!

 

[wxtornado]

Yes. We have free will, so we have choice.

How do you reconcile free will with an omniscient God - you can't have both!?

 

[wxtornado]

I have never seen the claim in the Bible that God is omni-benevolent. Quite the opposite.

My bad, I thought he was an all-loving God. I was under the assumption that he so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, ..............

 

[2ndAmendment]

Well, that's awful nice of poor people to take one for the team!

Sent a check lately?

 

[2ndAmendment]

How do you reconcile free will with an omniscient God - you can't have both!?

All knowing and free will do not conflict; He knows your choice.

My bad, I thought he was an all-loving God. I was under the assumption that he so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, ..............

God does love all humans. That is different from "omni-benevolent." Have you ever disciplined a child? You spank or punish them in some way. Do you still love them?

 

[wxtornado]

All knowing and free will do not conflict; He knows your choice.

Unfortunately we still have no choice if our actions are foreseen. It's not about forcing us -- it's about being committed to a course of action we have no ability or power to thwart.

In other words, Judas betrayed Jesus from infinity back in time, and he had absolutely no way to avoid it. It was meant to be, and it had to be.

God does love all humans. That is different from "omni-benevolent." Have you ever disciplined a child? You spank or punish them in some way. Do you still love them?

Sure it's okay to punish a child, but I won't cast them to the fires of hell for eternity for a "sin" committed 2000 years ago.

 

[wxtornado]

You cannot have good without evil, health without sickness, life without death. They would be meaningless since you would have nothing to compare it to.

First of all, what is the difference? God isn't interested in someone avoiding evil or sickness or death. If he was, he wouldn't allow an existence where people could get cast into Hell forever. Being punished forever has only one goal in mind: Sadistic torment for its own sake.

And since 2A and other theists like to use the "parent punishing the child" analogy, let me steal it. What will your child learn if, when he disobeys or breaks a rule -- you simply beat him endlessly, without end, over and over and over and over again? What can he possibly learn (other than to hate you)? What exists for him to apply his beating into a changed behavior?

Nothing. He is only being beaten to be beaten.

Secondly, this again is one of those questions that lead us to the core of the theistic paradigm. Why do we have to have a good and an evil? If there is a God, don't you think he could have chosen a different kind of set up? Where there were perhaps only degrees of goodness, and no evil?

If God authors all, then he MUST author evil at SOME level. Just by allowing it, he become an accessory to it. There's no way around this. God authors EVERYTHING, and EVERYTHING includes the good and the bad.

Or how about my worldview: Reality is non-divine. There's no "entity" of evil -- there are just good circumstances which creates a feeling of harmony, peace, security and satisfaction, or there are bad circumstances which create misery. We only think in terms of "good" and "evil" so we can categorize the two states of being. "Good" and "Evil" are irrelevant to a non-living, non sentient being or item. A rock doesn't think, "Oh no! I'm in lava! Christ, this sucks!" when a volcano blows and sends magma everywhere.

Good and evil are human conventions. Nothing more. That's the atheist model. Or, good and evil are constructs of reality and that relaity has an author. You call that author God.That God created this reality exactly the way it is-- with full foreknowledge of every bit of nastiness and evil that will come about.

And even knowing all that, some still worship that God.

 

[2ndAmendment]

It is true that the Bible says that God created the unclean and the clean, those for honorable service and those for dishonorable service. I don't and have not denied that. See Romans 9. All of it is good, but this is very pertinent.

Romans 9:15-21

15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

So maybe you were created for the express purpose of destruction. I don't know. The Bible does say most won't make it. I'm just grateful I have faith and pray that I never fall from relying on God's grace.

Capricious? I'm just a creature. Nothing more. Who am I to criticize my Creator.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
And since 2A and other theists like to use the "parent punishing the child" analogy, let me steal it. What will your child learn if, when he disobeys or breaks a rule -- you simply beat him endlessly, without end, over and over and over and over again? What can he possibly learn (other than to hate you)? What exists for him to apply his beating into a changed behavior?

Nothing. He is only being beaten to be beaten.

...

Of course God does not do that. Does He not send rain to your area as He does to mine? See, God gives good things to all, even those that do not recognize Him as God. The message of the Bible is God's love for mankind and the consequences of opposing Him.

God is obviously not constantly beating you. You are still posting.

 

[Pete]

First of all, what is the difference? God isn't interested in someone avoiding evil or sickness or death. If he was, he wouldn't allow an existence where people could get cast into Hell forever. Being punished forever has only one goal in mind: Sadistic torment for its own sake.

And since 2A and other theists like to use the "parent punishing the child" analogy, let me steal it. What will your child learn if, when he disobeys or breaks a rule -- you simply beat him endlessly, without end, over and over and over and over again? What can he possibly learn (other than to hate you)? What exists for him to apply his beating into a changed behavior?

Nothing. He is only being beaten to be beaten.

Perhaps if you step back and look at the larger picture.

If a child disobeys and is punished the behavior corrects, if not the consequences of the continued bad behavior result in life long agony. IE Promiscuity and AIDS. Would not AIDS fit the analogy of "Hell"? There is no end to it except death. There are numerous ways that people screw themselves up for life because of bad "behavior".

 

[bcp]

Yeah, that's just what I always wanted - to be a concubine for a grubby Muslim suicide bomber

I will pray that if you end up as one of the virgins (hey, it could happen) that you will find your new master has blown his winky off in the explosion that sped him along his way to his demise.


hmmm, maybe God has a sense of humor and he makes sure that these guys get their 72 virgins with no way to perform on them...