When someone tells you..

[Toxick]

How do you reconcile free will with an omniscient God - you can't have both!?

Way to stick it to them!




Now ask if God can create a rock that's so heavy that He can't pick it up!

 

[camily]

2A!!! Thank you for coming to the rescue! The kids had half a day and I have been gone all afternoon. I was afraid I was getting beaten to a pulp!

 

[Fallen]

I would be happy for anyone to pray for me. Whether it's because I'm sick or a Godless heathen, it can't hurt

 

[wxtornado]

2A!!! Thank you for coming to the rescue! The kids had half a day and I have been gone all afternoon. I was afraid I was getting beaten to a pulp!

Camily, I hope you don't really feel like you were "beaten to a pulp" - we're just here sharing ideas, altho different, in a friendly way!

 

[camily]

Camily, I hope you don't really feel like you were "beaten to a pulp" - we're just here sharing ideas, altho different, in a friendly way!

Oh no, I didn't feel that was. I was afraid I might have been since I wasn't here to post. It's all good.

 

[wxtornado]

Way to stick it to them!




Now ask if God can create a rock that's so heavy that He can't pick it up!

Regarding free-will vs God's omniscience: It's a valid question, actually, but it seems hard to get an answer that doesn't self-collapse.

 

[wxtornado]

Perhaps if you step back and look at the larger picture.

If a child disobeys and is punished the behavior corrects, if not the consequences of the continued bad behavior result in life long agony. IE Promiscuity and AIDS. Would not AIDS fit the analogy of "Hell"? There is no end to it except death. There are numerous ways that people screw themselves up for life because of bad "behavior".

According to your worldview, salvation is not awarded by doing good deeds, but through belief alone. God can forgive all things, it is said, except disbelief. He will pardon the murderer of children, if he but falls down and begs for forgiveness, and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior. But He will not pardon the person who uses reason and honesty, and who finally decides: "I just can't believe it."

I am told that it doesn't matter how good of a person I am during my life, because at the end of it, I will be asked: "Did you believe the one about the Garden of Eden?" I'll have to be honest and say, "No, I didn't. It was just too far-fetched... sorry."

 

[2ndAmendment]

According to your worldview, salvation is not awarded by doing good deeds, but through belief alone. God can forgive all things, it is said, except disbelief. He will pardon the murderer of children, if he but falls down and begs for forgiveness, and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior. But He will not pardon the person who uses reason and honesty, and who finally decides: "I just can't believe it."

I am told that it doesn't matter how good of a person I am during my life, because at the end of it, I will be asked: "Did you believe the one about the Garden of Eden?" I'll have to be honest and say, "No, I didn't. It was just too far-fetched... sorry."

That is not the one you are required to believe. Believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, as Savior, and accept Him as Lord.

John 3:13-21

13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

 

[wxtornado]

That is not the one you are required to believe. Believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, as Savior, and accept Him as Lord.

Same outcome if I don't believe.

 

[JPC, Sr.]

The Wizard!

Same outcome if I don't believe.

Yes, you are correct, and FYI, not everyone on here is blind orthodox.

In the end everyone gets saved, even the Devil as he is not as horrible as people make the Devil out to be. Many people are far far worse then the Devil would chose to be. God created the Devil because Satan has a purpose in this world and we people need to fix ourselves and not to be concerned about some invisible creature that can take care of themslves.

FYI,

 

[Toxick]

Regarding free-will vs God's omniscience: It's a valid question, actually, but it seems hard to get an answer that doesn't self-collapse.

It's the same old same old, is what it is.

The moment that anyone declares anything to be an absolute, or if anyone declares something to be "omni-anything", then at least 100 people will come up with at least 100 different paradoxes to challenge the absolute.

"Wow: God is omnipotent? Then can he make a rock so heavy that he can't pick it up? If he can, he's not omnipotent because he can't pick it up, if he can't make it, then he's not omnipotent by definition."

You call it a valid question, I call it a pedantic waste of time, and a time-honored means of cornering someone who dares to defend their religion. The second someone says, "I don't know" or "God Can't" then you jump in and yell, "GOTCHA!!11!!!!one!!! HA-HA! You're an idiot for believing in a fairy tale!"


The fact is, I don't know how to answer dumbass paradoxical nonsense.

If that makes me a fool for believe in fairy-tales, then so be it. I have explained, in detail, why I'm a believer (I didn't used to be), and it seems that atheists and agnostics oftentimes dismiss my reasoning out of hand. Well, that's all fine and dandy, but I think my reasoning is sound, and I don't feel the need to validate myself by answering "profound" paradox questions.







And although I'm sure you have a stock answer at the ready, I'll leave you with this: Just because God knows what you're going to do, doesn't mean you don't have the free will to do it. If I offer the choice to my kids between chocolate cake and asparagus - the fact that I KNOW they're going for the cake doesn't negate the fact that I gave them a choice.

 

[wxtornado]

.... even the Devil as he is not as horrible as people make the Devil out to be....

I don't know -- to me, Satan comes across as far less evil. Satan never drowned the world. He doesn't slay entire cities, he doesn't send plagues, he doesn't strike people dead for spilling their seed, he doesn't destroy cities in fire (Sodom and Gomorrah), he doesn't test people on knowledge they don't have, he doesn't condemn an entire species for the act of two people, he didn't create Hell (God did that), he doesn't allow people to burn in torment forever for no other reason than to burn (God set up that rule too), he doesn't create barbaric rules like stoning people to death for being gay or adultery or for working on the Sabbath, he doesn't demand blood sacrifices, etc.

Satan is pretty incorrigible to Job, but even that is motivated by God wanting to make a cheap, lousy bet.

All in all, God is pretty monstrous in the Bible, and Satan pales by comparison.

 

[wxtornado]

It's the same old same old, is what it is.

The moment that anyone declares anything to be an absolute, or if anyone declares something to be "omni-anything", then at least 100 people will come up with at least 100 different paradoxes to challenge the absolute.

"Wow: God is omnipotent? Then can he make a rock so heavy that he can't pick it up? If he can, he's not omnipotent because he can't pick it up, if he can't make it, then he's not omnipotent by definition."

You call it a valid question, I call it a pedantic waste of time, and a time-honored means of cornering someone who dares to defend their religion. The second someone says, "I don't know" or "God Can't" then you jump in and yell, "GOTCHA!!11!!!!one!!! HA-HA! You're an idiot for believing in a fairy tale!"


The fact is, I don't know how to answer dumbass paradoxical nonsense.

If that makes me a fool for believe in fairy-tales, then so be it. I have explained, in detail, why I'm a believer (I didn't used to be), and it seems that atheists and agnostics oftentimes dismiss my reasoning out of hand. Well, that's all fine and dandy, but I think my reasoning is sound, and I don't feel the need to validate myself by answering "profound" paradox questions.

I didn't ask the paradoxical question you're speaking of, you brought it up. No need to be so defensive.

And although I'm sure you have a stock answer at the ready, I'll leave you with this: Just because God knows what you're going to do, doesn't mean you don't have the free will to do it. If I offer the choice to my kids between chocolate cake and asparagus - the fact that I KNOW they're going for the cake doesn't negate the fact that I gave them a choice.

Your example is inapplicable because you are NOT omniscient and do not know FOR SURE your child will only select the cake. Indeed, one day he will select the asparagus over the cake. When it will happen you have no idea. It could happen tomorrow, it could happen today, it could happen in 30 years.

You are not comparable to God in your example, because God knows precisely when the child will select the asparagus, as opposed to your guessing a child will generally select the cake.

 

[Toxick]

I didn't ask the paradoxical question you're speaking of, you brought it up. No need to be so defensive.

No - you brought up the original paradoxical question of free will versus omniscience. There's a whole stack of them. They're all the same question in different wrappers.

Your example is inapplicable because you are NOT omniscient and do not know FOR SURE your child will only select the cake.

Hah!

You are not comparable to God in your example, because God knows precisely when the child will select the asparagus, as opposed to your guessing a child will generally select the cake.

My point was that precognition does not negate free will.

 

[wxtornado]

My point was that precognition does not negate free will.

Yes, you've already asserted this.

Actually, you have no choice. Your choice was pre-ordained. You are in a maze that you think is not a maze, but every "choice" you make is known. Your free will is purely an illusion, because God has already seen those choices made before you were even born, and you are powerless to make a "choice" that might prove God wrong.

It's really a very simple illustration, but generally speaking, because you think you are selecting "A" over "B", you have the illusion that you are making some free choice. Of course, selecting "B" has been a recorded fact by God infinitely in the past, and infinitely in the future, and you have zero power to change that. If you consider that "free will", well, okay.

 

[PJay]

Same outcome if I don't believe.

How can that be? You are an Atheist, correct?

No God. No Heaven.

 

[Toxick]

Yes, you've already asserted this.

At which point you promptly dismissed it.

Actually, you have no choice. Your choice was pre-ordained. You are in a maze that you think is not a maze, but every "choice" you make is known. Your free will is purely an illusion, because God has already seen those choices made before you were even born, and you are powerless to make a "choice" that might prove God wrong.

OK - fine. There's no free will. God is evil and I'm a big moron. QED.

Happy now?



I didn't come in here to discuss metaphysics with someone who doesn't believe in them. I came in here to point out that all your radical ideas about religion have already occurred to others, and these kinds of pointless paradoxical questions have been dissected and resected ad-nauseum.

And I gave up long ago trying to discuss these kinds of things with someone who's mind is made up. So it is at this time that I'll let you get your last word in and bid you a good day.

 

[wxtornado]

How can that be? You are an Atheist, correct?

No God. No Heaven.

That's my point - I'm not bound by the tenets of the theist's worldview.

 

[wxtornado]

At which point you promptly dismissed it.





OK - fine. There's no free will. God is evil and I'm a big moron. QED.

Happy now?



I didn't come in here to discuss metaphysics with someone who doesn't believe in them. I came in here to point out that all your radical ideas about religion have already occurred to others, and these kinds of pointless paradoxical questions have been dissected and resected ad-nauseum.

And I gave up long ago trying to discuss these kinds of things with someone who's mind is made up. So it is at this time that I'll let you get your last word in and bid you a good day.

Fair enough - I was under the mistaken assumption that some here might like to discuss differing worldviews, but you seem awfully defensive in your tone. Good day to you sir.

 

[czygvtwkr]

I think they are a stinking liar because I doubt they ever do pray for me.