Which was it?

[Midnightrider]

wx's statements are here for any to read. They are always the same.

so by that argument, you can stop posting too
and the endless passages you quote, all in the bible for any to read, thanks

 

[2ndAmendment]

so by that argument, you can stop posting too
and the endless passages you quote, all in the bible for any to read, thanks

You have a penchant for trying to down me at every turn. I really don't know what I have done to make you have a thing for me. You alluded that I am self-righteous, but I ask, where have I ever proclaimed myself as being anything other than just a sinner forgiven? If I have, please point it out, so I can apologize. I am nothing but a forgiven sinner saved through the shedding of the blood of Y'shua on a Roman cross, promised eternal life through His resurrection, yielding my will to His as best I can, failing, not perfect, but striving to be.

If my posting scripture give you problems, then your problem is not with me but with the Bible. If you don't like reading scripture or my opinions, please put me on ignore. But don't ever expect me to stop proclaiming the kingdom of God and His plan of salvation.

 

[Midnightrider]

You have a penchant for trying to down me at every turn. I really don't know what I have done to make you have a thing for me. You alluded that I am self-righteous, but I ask, where have I ever proclaimed myself as being anything other than just a sinner forgiven? If I have, please point it out, so I can apologize. I am nothing but a forgiven sinner saved through the shedding of the blood of Y'shua on a Roman cross, promised eternal life through His resurrection, yielding my will to His as best I can, failing, not perfect, but striving to be.

If my posting scripture give you problems, then your problem is not with me but with the Bible. If you don't like reading scripture or my opinions, please put me on ignore. But don't ever expect me to stop proclaiming the kingdom of God and His plan of salvation.

I'm not trying to down you, i am just pointing out how rediculous it is that you try to regulate who posts what here, but then get all offended if someone suggests that you take your own advice.
thats all i did, point what you said to wx back at you, so again, i saw take your own advice, put me on iggy if you dont like what i have to say, but dont expect me to change b\c or your bullying.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I'm not trying to down you, i am just pointing out how rediculous it is that you try to regulate who posts what here, but then get all offended if someone suggests that you take your own advice.
thats all i did, point what you said to wx back at you, so again, i saw take your own advice, put me on iggy if you dont like what i have to say, but dont expect me to change b\c or your bullying.

Obviously I cannot regulate who posts or what people post. To suggest that I do is just ridiculous.

You are right in one respect. I should not have addressed my retort to wxtornado. I should have addressed a message to This_person. It was my way of telling This_person that this is the typical fare from wxtornado.

As to me bullying anyone, just exactly how is that done on the Internet? How does someone reach through the wires and grab you? If you feel bullied, then I would say you are probably a bit insecure. Just my opinion.

 

[Toxick]

I'm not trying to down you, i am just pointing out how rediculous it is that you try to regulate who posts what here, but then get all offended if someone suggests that you take your own advice. .

I've long thought you've had a major boner for 2A. So, it's not him being defensive... It's you.

And nobody tries to regulate anybody. I also pointed out that wx has beaten that horse into a dead bloody pile of meat. Pointing this out is not the same thing as trying to regulate the forums.


Why don't you remove that large stick from your can.

 

[Midnightrider]

Obviously I cannot regulate who posts or what people post. To suggest that I do is just ridiculous.

You are right in one respect. I should not have addressed my retort to wxtornado. I should have addressed a message to This_person. It was my way of telling This_person that this is the typical fare from wxtornado.

As to me bullying anyone, just exactly how is that done on the Internet? How does someone reach through the wires and grab you? If you feel bullied, then I would say you are probably a bit insecure. Just my opinion.

I said try to regulate.... and it is rediculous that you try


as for the rest, i put it back at you again, you must be religiously insecure if questions such as those posted by wx are threatening to you

 

[Midnightrider]

I've long thought you've had a major boner for 2A. So, it's not him being defensive... It's you.

And nobody tries to regulate anybody. I also pointed out that wx has beaten that horse into a dead bloody pile of meat. Pointing this out is not the same thing as trying to regulate the forums.


Why don't you remove that large stick from your can.

well its good to be thought of, even if you are thinking about boners and sticks in azzes when you do it

 

[Toxick]

well its good to be thought of, even if you are thinking about boners and sticks in azzes when you do it

I got it...

I see what you did there.

You're implying that I'm gay because of the figures of speech I used... And therefore nothing I said has merit.





Good one.

 

[Midnightrider]

I got it...

I see what you did there.

You're implying that I'm gay because of the figures of speech I used... And therefore nothing I said has merit.





Good one.

well at least you have a sense of humor, even if its

and i like the "i see what you did there" very good

 

[Toxick]

well at least you have a sense of humor, even if its

and i like the "i see what you did there" very good

Glad you approve.

And I don't think that anyone who knows me would ever deny that I have a sense of humor.

Especially in the sarcasm department.

 

[This_person]

Obviously I cannot regulate who posts or what people post. To suggest that I do is just ridiculous.

You are right in one respect. I should not have addressed my retort to wxtornado. I should have addressed a message to This_person. It was my way of telling This_person that this is the typical fare from wxtornado.

As to me bullying anyone, just exactly how is that done on the Internet? How does someone reach through the wires and grab you? If you feel bullied, then I would say you are probably a bit insecure. Just my opinion.

I kind of assumed by the tone of the question it wasn't sincere, but an old line being used again. I don't think there was any sincerety in the question at all to try and learn or further the debate, but I hope others reading may be sincere in trying to see another point of view. I don't, and never will, claim my opinions to be right for everyone, just me. And, if I can help someone come to a new understanding for themselves, good for all. If I can't, I tried - I didn't stay quiet behind. I learn both new strengths and new weaknesses in my opinions from discussions like this, and I hope others do too.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I said try to regulate.... and it is rediculous that you try


as for the rest, i put it back at you again, you must be religiously insecure if questions such as those posted by wx are threatening to you

I don't try. I think it is ridiculous that you think I try. Now on my forums, I can and do. Spammers try to post their junk and get immediately banned at the IP. I do know how to regulate and when I can. I am not a moderator, administrator, or owner of this forum so for anyone to think that I could possible regulate anything with regard to this forum other than my own posts is just ludicrous. Time for a reality check there ol' midnight.

wx's questions and your accusations and snide comments mean nothing to me. I just was trying to save This_person from being lead down the same never ending path of barbs into which wx likes to entice any new found blood.

 

[wxtornado]

Why don't you stop with this same tired merry go round? You try this same stuff with anyone you can bait.

I am beginning to believe you did not ask in sincerity.

I was seeing if someone else had an answer since you continually seem fresh out. Think "free will".

 

[wxtornado]

I kind of assumed by the tone of the question it wasn't sincere, but an old line being used again.

Well, this just shows that you didn't even read my last post, because I didn't even ask you a question. I'm just explaining to you that what you theists assert is an impossiblity. No fault of yours, that's just a consequence of the God asserted by Christians. I even gave you scriptural examples, and thought you might want to chime in.

Read it, or don't, it doesn't matter.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I was seeing if someone else had an answer since you continually seem fresh out. Think "free will".

Your insincerity is showing.

 

[This_person]

If I have free will, then your God isn't omniscient. Please explain how I am able to choose to believe, when he already saw infinitely back in time that I wouldn't believe.

Seemed like a question......

 

[This_person]

I'm arguing that the God Christians posit comes with certain consequences, and one of those consequences is that free will becomes an impossibility.
...that spills down to every level, since according to the theist we are "all part of God's plan". Hence even these words I'm typing were foreseen and known and I was "created" to do this very thing. I have no choice in the matter. Even if I stop, that was foreseen, and known and realized and all part of it.
Now remove God from the picture. Make a choice right now - anything will do. There's no God, so it was not a foreseen choice.
That's free will. It simply is. No omniscient, omnipotent force out there to have anything to do with it.

Let me see if I can help by giving you my way of understanding this; God knows me. To the very number of hairs on my head, God knows me. I have free will to choose how I'll act. God give's me tools to make good choices, like a working knowledge of morals, an achievable path to follow those morals, hidden rewards for following the "path less taken", etc. He also gives me temptations away from the path - wine, women, song, greed, envy, etc, etc. He sets the stage of which I'm one but many players. He knows every choice I could possibly make. I choose to make it. What ever I choose, He knew was a possible choice, and sets the stage for the next choice. He does this for each and every person, each and every moment of the day. We get the choice, He has that choice on His list of what could be in the future, and moves on based on our choices. It's hard to explain in a paragraph or two, but this is my understanding of it. Mind you, God only gives me what I NEED to know in the Bible and in life. Not everything I WANT to know. That's why there are holes of information. God created more than just Adam and Eve, or else a wife couldn't have been found east of Eden for their boy. But, I don't NEED to know the rest of that story, because it's not pertinent, it's a distraction from the point. Same with the understanding of free will. I NEED to know I have it, but WANT to know exactly how it works. So, I come up with my own explaination.

 

[brendar buhl]

Well, this just shows that you didn't even read my last post, because I didn't even ask you a question. I'm just explaining to you that what you theists assert is an impossiblity. No fault of yours, that's just a consequence of the God asserted by Christians. I even gave you scriptural examples, and thought you might want to chime in.

Read it, or don't, it doesn't matter.

I like wxtornado's questions. I find them stimulating. Of course I'm new and haven't grown tired of them yet.
This is a very difficult question because it confronts two different ideas and pits them against one another.
The first is the idea of "free will", which is not a tenet of Christianity. What I mean by that is that you will not find the words "free will" together in the major translations of the Bible except to describe a certain type of offering. The idea of free will is implicit in the scripture but not explicit, if you know what I mean. So it is taught as a Christian idea by most Churches but you wouldn't find it in any Creed.
The second is Omniscience or all knowing God which is in scripture and the creeds and held as a major tenet of most monotheistic religions.
So my first point would be that if these two ideas can not coexist in your mind then get rid of the one that has no impact. Get rid of the one that is man made. Get rid of the one that just makes you feel good. And hold on to the on that does matter.
My second point would be that we all as Christians and non-Christians believe in stuff that we don't understand. Why do we demand that the very nature of God be completely understandable? We take a lot of scientific stuff just on the word of a few experts and call it fact, even if it makes no sense at all, because they're smarter than us and we're okay with that. But when it comes to Christianity the experts certainly don't seem any smarter than the ones asking the questions (not by a long shot). So, what are we to do?
We have a God who exists in eternal present tense. To Him there is no yesterday or tomorrow. All existence is right now. We do not exist in that realm and no matter what words we invent (like "Omniscience") we can not bring that realm into ours and understand how it works.

I agree with wxtornado. The two ideas are incongruent and, I think, the God that has been preached by the Church falls way short of the God that truly exists. Furthermore we owe it to ourselves and to the world to not pander to this image of God that we have created but to humbly bow down and not only admit but worship the truly mysterious nature of God. A little authenticity goes a long way.

Sorry that was so long and I hope I don't offend anyone.

 

[Toxick]

I like wxtornado's questions. I find them stimulating. Of course I'm new and haven't grown tired of them yet.

Well, it's the same question, over and over.

It has made me think though. I'm no philosopher, and I don't intend to get into a major debate over this - at least until I've further pondered on the subject. I have reached no logical conclusions or thought about it enough to make intelligent arguments...

However.

The more I think about it, the less I see the concept of omniscience and free will as a paradox. Foresight does not imply causality. That is to say, just because God knew what you were going to do doesn't mean that he made you - or caused you - to do it. Free will is still valid even if someone (God, in this case) knew what you were going to do.

I saw a movie recently - Minority Report - where there are three precognatives who saw murders before they happened. They didn't cause the murders, of course, only saw them. The murders were done of free will by the murderers themselves. Of course the movie gets into changing the course of events, and the nature of the future... but the concept of precognition as presented got me thinking about this discussion and the causality of human behavior.


Obviously this is not conclusive, and I'm sure that wx will find flaws in the argument and be simply delighted to point them out.

But as I said, I haven't spent a great deal of time deeply pondering the subject and I don't intend to have long heated discussions on the point any time soon.

Maybe someday.

But not today

Sorry that was so long and I hope I don't offend anyone.

I doubt anyone would be offended by your post. You didn't sounds snide, condescending, beligerent or self-righteous.

 

[wxtornado]

Let me see if I can help by giving you my way of understanding this; God knows me. To the very number of hairs on my head, God knows me. I have free will to choose how I'll act. God give's me tools to make good choices, like a working knowledge of morals, an achievable path to follow those morals, hidden rewards for following the "path less taken", etc. He also gives me temptations away from the path - wine, women, song, greed, envy, etc, etc. He sets the stage of which I'm one but many players. He knows every choice I could possibly make. I choose to make it. What ever I choose, He knew was a possible choice, and sets the stage for the next choice. He does this for each and every person, each and every moment of the day. We get the choice, He has that choice on His list of what could be in the future, and moves on based on our choices. It's hard to explain in a paragraph or two, but this is my understanding of it. Mind you, God only gives me what I NEED to know in the Bible and in life. Not everything I WANT to know. That's why there are holes of information. God created more than just Adam and Eve, or else a wife couldn't have been found east of Eden for their boy. But, I don't NEED to know the rest of that story, because it's not pertinent, it's a distraction from the point. Same with the understanding of free will. I NEED to know I have it, but WANT to know exactly how it works. So, I come up with my own explaination.

Has your God already seen the choices you will make, in your opinion?