Which was it?

[This_person]

Has your God already seen the choices you will make, in your opinion?

God has seen all the choices I could make. If I choose to write this, He foresaw it. He also foresaw that I could choose NOT to write this, and there's a future with that choice, also. He can foresee all choices I make, then I make them, and He foresees all subsequent choices from that....

 

[Toxick]

so i guess the book of morman is also the infalliable word of god? Joseph Smith said he was directed by god in the translation......

No.


And here, I thought you and I were going to have a nice conversation that ended amicably.

But then you have to go and get cavalier.

 

[Midnightrider]

No.


And here, I thought you and I were going to have a nice conversation that ended amicably.

But then you have to go and get cavalier.

Why is it cavalier to ask a question that makes sense. If those people who wrote the bible could have been guided by god, why couldn't Joseph Smith. And before you go discounting the book of morman, remember that at the same point in christianity's history the bible hadn't even been written. I wonder what they will be saying about te book of morman in two thousand years......

 

[Toxick]

Why is it cavalier to ask a question that makes sense.

It was a clearly a baiting remark.

Obviously I don't think that the Book of Mormon is the infallable word of God because I'm not a Mormon.

The same as I don't think the Quran is the word of God, because I'm not a Muslim.

If I thought these religions had merit, I'd convert.

If those people who wrote the bible could have been guided by god, why couldn't Joseph Smith.

Because Joseph Smith is a proven liar. I don't mean to be disrespectful toward other religions in the Religion forum, so my apologies to any Mormons reading this. But nothing gives Joseph Smith divine authority, and he has been shown to engage in fraud.

He claimed to have gotten the book of Mormon on Golden Tablets from an Angel named Moroni - who took the Golden Tablets back.

Well... ok.

Even if I were to accept that, there's more. After starting his religion, he got a hold of some Egyptian papyri which he "translated" and said were the lost books of Abraham and Joseph. These papyri held such interesting tid-bits such as the statement from God that says that black people were supposed to be servants and slaves to whites and Asians.

With the discovery of the Rosetta stone, it was determined that, instead of being the Books of Abraham and Joseph, the documents were actually copies of The Egyptian Book of the Dead and The Breathing Permit of Horus.

So I put little credence into Mormonism.

And before you go discounting the book of morman, remember that at the same point in christianity's history the bible hadn't even been written. I wonder what they will be saying about te book of morman in two thousand years......

I'm fairly certain the bible was, in fact, completely written and assembled in 1829.



Anyway, just because someone says they're inspired by God doesn't mean they ARE.

I've already spelled out the reasons I believe in the Bible, and I see no reason to hash that all out again - but since I DO believe in the Bible, I believe it is inspired by God - and I believe that it's the ONLY word of God.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Thats not my understanding, its my understanding that the some of the works were memories or testements, others were recaps of stories, and others were revealed to men by god, all of which were written by men.

Addiditonally, which works were incorperated into the bible were decided by men, unless these men were guided by god the entire time it stands to reason that some or all of the works would be less than complete and include the misrepresentation of the author trying to comprehend the uncomprehendable.

Its like the ultimate game of telephone, only the people relaying the messages can't comprehend the message.

I don't expect you to believe me. You don't believe in God. No amount of explaining will change you. It will take an act of the Holy Spirit. Time will tell. You will or your won't just as wx will or won't. Nothing is decided until the moment you die. I I just prayed for you, too.

 

[Penn]

God has seen all the choices I could make. If I choose to write this, He foresaw it. He also foresaw that I could choose NOT to write this, and there's a future with that choice, also. He can foresee all choices I make, then I make them, and He foresees all subsequent choices from that....

This is how I have come to understand Free Will. God has foreseen all the choices available to us, given a specific incident, conflict or predicament. Yet a part of that gift of Free Will that He has afforded us, is our our decision as to which choice or road we will choose to take.

Bottom line is this: It is still our choice to make.

 

[Midnightrider]

I don't expect you to believe me. You don't believe in God. No amount of explaining will change you. It will take an act of the Holy Spirit. Time will tell. You will or your won't just as wx will or won't. Nothing is decided until the moment you die. I I just prayed for you, too.

Thanks for playing, but i have never said i dont believe in god, i have plenty of questions, especially of the christian faith in which i was raised.
And i dont need to be prayed for to be converted to your way of thinking. If being open to questions and other peoples interpretations is wrong, id rather stay the way i am, thanks.

 

[wxtornado]

God has seen all the choices I could make. If I choose to write this, He foresaw it. He also foresaw that I could choose NOT to write this, and there's a future with that choice, also. He can foresee all choices I make, then I make them, and He foresees all subsequent choices from that....

That all fine, but it doesn't really answer my question. My question was has he seen the choices you *will* make, not *could* make.

 

[wxtornado]

This is how I have come to understand Free Will. God has foreseen all the choices available to us, given a specific incident, conflict or predicament. Yet a part of that gift of Free Will that He has afforded us, is our our decision as to which choice or road we will choose to take.

Bottom line is this: It is still our choice to make.

Actually, the bottom line is this: you weren't even born when God saw you write that post. Could you have "chosen" not to write it? Nope. Your omniscient God already saw you do it.

 

[This_person]

That all fine, but it doesn't really answer my question. My question was has he seen the choices you *will* make, not *could* make.

This question borders on the old George Carlin skit wherein he asks, "If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big even He can't lift it?" No matter what the answer, the response is, "Gotcha". You pose a situation where if I answer that He foresaw it, you'll proclaim I had no real choice. And, if I say He didn't see which one for sure I'd make, then he's not all powerful and omniscient. So, I'll choose not to fall for the gotcha question, and merely say it's a personal choice of faith how one feels about free will.

 

[Toxick]

Actually, the bottom line is this: you weren't even born when God saw you write that post. Could you have "chosen" not to write it? Nope. Your omniscient God already saw you do it.

But it was still HIS CHOICE to write it.

His choice was not dictated by some other being. It was not written and then he was forced to post it.

He did it himself. And ONLY him, by his own free will.





Regardless of who or what saw it ahead of time.

 

[wxtornado]

This question borders on the old George Carlin skit wherein he asks, "If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big even He can't lift it?" No matter what the answer, the response is, "Gotcha". You pose a situation where if I answer that He foresaw it, you'll proclaim I had no real choice. And, if I say He didn't see which one for sure I'd make, then he's not all powerful and omniscient. So, I'll choose not to fall for the gotcha question, and merely say it's a personal choice of faith how one feels about free will.

And that's fine - I just wanted to know if you could explain it in a way that I understand.

 

[wxtornado]

But it was still HIS CHOICE to write it.

His choice was not dictated by some other being. It was not written and then he was forced to post it.

He did it himself. And ONLY him, by his own free will.





Regardless of who or what saw it ahead of time.

Guess what? God saw you make this post, before you were born! Could you have *not* made this post? Absolutely not, you had no choice in the matter.

 

[Toxick]

Guess what? God saw you make this post, before you were born! Could you have *not* made this post? Absolutely not, you had no choice in the matter.

I disagree.

I absolutely could have ignored your preceding post. I chose to response. I did.

I wrote that post of my own free will. No force in heaven or earth made me do it, except for my own desire.

 

[wxtornado]

I disagree.

I absolutely could have ignored your preceding post. I chose to response. I did.

I wrote that post of my own free will. No force in heaven or earth made me do it, except for my own desire.

Who said anybody made you do it?

 

[Toxick]

Toxick how is that different from

On the surface - nothing.

However, because I have established my belief in the bible through other various criteria which I accept as valid evidence, I feel comfortable accepting things which are written in it, even if I haven't verified with it archeological evidence.

And the NT "Bible" was agreed upon during the Council of Nicea in 300 (or so) AD. So the book of Mormon is less acceptable because it was written 1500 years after a different book?

No - the book of Mormon is less acceptable because it was written by a false prophet, who was proven so by his own actions. If something was written last week and proves itself worthy of being included in biblical canon, I would accept it. The date it was written means little to me.

 

[Toxick]

Who said anybody made you do it?

If I didn't choose to write it of my own free will, as you are saying, then something must have made me do it.

 

[wxtornado]

If I didn't choose to write it of my own free will, as you are saying, then something must have made me do it.

Your God saw you post it, remember? Infinitely back in time even! How can you even make a choice not to post it if he already saw you post?

 

[Toxick]

Your God saw you post it, remember? Infinitely back in time even! How can you even make a choice not to post it if he already saw you post?

Of course I remember. The point I'm arguing which you are not getting - or at the least not acknowledging - is that regardless of who or what saw me post it before I did it that does not remove the choice from me.

We are at a point where it's becoming a cyclical argument which can go on until the end of time.

I argue that precognition does not negate personal choice.

You argue that it does.

You say the chicken came first, I say the egg. There's really not much further this debate can go, I think.

 

[Penn]

Your God saw you post it, remember? Infinitely back in time even! How can you even make a choice not to post it if he already saw you post?

What we are trying to explain here, is that while it is true that God saw the choices you could make - way before you were born - those are the ones you would have as choices to make. In other words, there would be more than just one choice available to each of us, for every turn or fork in the road.


So, yes, while we believe He knew what choices were available to us, it would still be of our own choosing which one we would make as an individual.

That - is why it is called Free Will.