Which was it?

[wxtornado]

I like wxtornado's questions. I find them stimulating. Of course I'm new and haven't grown tired of them yet.

Thanks, I appreciate that. That's exactly why I ask these questions - to stimulate thought and conversation, and to help me better understand. I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs, but I don't mind offering up additional fodder for someone who might be on the fence

 

[Roughidle]

...but I don't mind offering up additional fodder for someone who might be on the fence

I find fences just make me wonder what's on the otherside of them...heh.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs, but I don't mind offering up additional fodder for someone who might be on the fence

I think you just contradicted yourself in one compound sentence.

 

[wxtornado]

Foresight does not imply causality. That is to say, just because God knew what you were going to do doesn't mean that he made you - or caused you - to do it.

I keep hearing this over and over, but don't know where you all come up with it. Nobody is saying he "caused" you to do it.

All I am asking is that if He has already seen you do something, how can you "choose" to do anything different? I don't know how to make it any simpler than that. If God has seen my decision before I was even born to make it, it has already been decreed!

 

[wxtornado]

I think you just contradicted yourself in one compound sentence.

I should have a chapter in the bible, no?

 

[Toxick]

I keep hearing this over and over, but don't know where you all come up with it. Nobody is saying he "caused" you to do it.

No, but you heavily implying it when you use words like "decreed" (as in the following quote) as if someone else made that choice for you.

All I am asking is that if He has already seen you do something, how can you "choose" to do anything different? I don't know how to make it any simpler than that. If God has seen my decision before I was even born to make it, it has already been decreed!

My point is, that just because God (or a psychic, or a palm-reader, or an Oracle, or a Precog) has foreseen your decision before you were even born doesn't make it any less your decision. And I don't know how to make it any simpler than that.

 

[wxtornado]

My point is, that just because God (or a psychic, or a palm-reader, or an Oracle, or a Precog) has foreseen your decision before you were even born doesn't make it any less your decision. And I don't know how to make it any simpler than that.

I get what your saying. So I'll ask again (something that I still don't know) - can you make a decision (choose) something other that what you God foresaw?

 

[Roughidle]

No, but you heavily implying it when you use words like "decreed" (as in the following quote) as if someone else made that choice for you. My point is, that just because God (or a psychic, or a palm-reader, or an Oracle, or a Precog) has foreseen your decision before you were even born doesn't make it any less your decision. And I don't know how to make it any simpler than that.

...but I believe wxtornado was making arguement against the idea of "everything according to God's will", that if that was/is indeed true then you wouldn't have free will. Not that God could just see your future but that your life and all of it is according to His will. Unless I followed this thread wrong.

 

[brendar buhl]

No, but you heavily implying it when you use words like "decreed" (as in the following quote) as if someone else made that choice for you.






My point is, that just because God (or a psychic, or a palm-reader, or an Oracle, or a Precog) has foreseen your decision before you were even born doesn't make it any less your decision. And I don't know how to make it any simpler than that.

Problem is you can't just look at God as a psychic or a palm reader. wxtornado is saying that the God who knows all, created all, ordained all and sets everything into motion does not leave much room for free will. If God's attributes were limited to just having infinite knowledge then you would have a point, but he is a far cry from a fortune teller.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I should have a chapter in the bible, no?

There are many verses in the Bible that talk of those like you. But like I have posted, you are not dead yet. Just prayed for you.

 

[Toxick]

Problem is you can't just look at God as a psychic or a palm reader.

Those were simple examples to reinforce a point: which was that because a being - be it God, or a new age oracle - can see the future and see what you will do doesn't remove your responsibility or diminish your capacity to make choices.

That is to say: a foreseen choice is still a choice.

wxtornado is saying that the God who knows all, created all, ordained all and sets everything into motion does not leave much room for free will.

I know what he's saying. I am disagreeing with it, and explaining why.

And creating something, and setting it into motion doesn't mean that you have microcontrol of it, especially when you willingly relinquish that control, or allow components of your creation to make choices.

Even if you can see the future.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Human impose human characteristics on God. That is where all human endeavor to understand God goes awry. God is as far beyond humans as humans are beyond a paramecium; farther.

 

[Midnightrider]

Human impose human characteristics on God. That is where all human endeavor to understand God goes awry. God is as far beyond humans as humans are beyond a paramecium; farther.

If that is the case, and i believe it is, how can you feel that the bible is the infalliable word of god, when it is agreeded that the works in the bible were written by men, whom we have just agreeded do not have the ability to comnprehind god. wouldn't this in fact indicate the bible is logically faliiable and incomplete since the writers couldn't fully understand the subject?

 

[Toxick]

Yes but thats not his question,

If God (or a psychic, or a palm-reader, or an Oracle, or a Precog) has foreseen your decision, before you were even born, to turn right. If God is infallible then what he saw is Fact, even if it hasnt happened yet.

BUT, if you in fact turn left, you call in question whether or not what God saw was true. It doesnt question your ability to have free will

I'm not getting you. I don't see how I'm misreading the original question.



I'm also beginning to be sorry that I added psychics and palm-readers into my post. They are the least important part of my point, but everyone seems to be jumping at them as if they're somehow proof of the converse.

Someone earlier brought up Minority Report. The final of the Movie wasnt that the Precogs saw (in the future) something and Tom Cruise was able to change the Future. it was that the Precogs saw something and was interpretted incorrectly.

Yeah, I brought up the movie; and I deliberately avoided the plot devices within the movies, except for the existence of human precognition and the difference between seeing something and the causality of that something.

Tom Cruise figures out that the Director hired someone to kill Anne Lively knowing the Pre cogs would see it and stop it. He then killed her in the same fashion as the pre cogs saw it happen, so it would appear to be an "echo" of a different murder, and not an actual murder.

Yeah.... Good flick. I watched it again last week.

 

[2ndAmendment]

If that is the case, and i believe it is, how can you feel that the bible is the infalliable word of god, when it is agreeded that the works in the bible were written by men, whom we have just agreeded do not have the ability to comnprehind god. wouldn't this in fact indicate the bible is logically faliiable and incomplete since the writers couldn't fully understand the subject?

God guided the thoughts of men to accomplish His goal. The Bible is God's word. God used men as His tools to write the words. Since God formed the thoughts, there are infallible. God revealed what He chose to reveal.

 

[Toxick]

wouldn't this in fact indicate the bible is logically faliiable and incomplete since the writers couldn't fully understand the subject?

No.

With the single exception of the story of Creation, the bible isn't written about anything other than human experience. There are no trips to the heavenly realm or astral planes. There are no discussions about the nature of God Himself.

Man saw, man wrote. Man is under the influece of God while writing, and therefore the writing is said to be The Word of God.


Feel free to disregard the last part out of hand - since I know you will anyway.

 

[Midnightrider]

God guided the thoughts of men to accomplish His goal. The Bible is God's word. God used men as His tools to write the words. Since God formed the thoughts, there are infallible. God revealed what He chose to reveal.

Thats not my understanding, its my understanding that the some of the works were memories or testements, others were recaps of stories, and others were revealed to men by god, all of which were written by men.

Addiditonally, which works were incorperated into the bible were decided by men, unless these men were guided by god the entire time it stands to reason that some or all of the works would be less than complete and include the misrepresentation of the author trying to comprehend the uncomprehendable.

Its like the ultimate game of telephone, only the people relaying the messages can't comprehend the message.

 

[Midnightrider]

No.

With the single exception of the story of Creation, the bible isn't written about anything other than human experience. There are no trips to the heavenly realm or astral planes. There are no discussions about the nature of God Himself.

Man saw, man wrote. Man is under the influece of God while writing, and therefore the writing is said to be The Word of God.


Feel free to disregard the last part out of hand - since I know you will anyway.

thats exactly my point, people wrote about their experiences and their observations, because they are people, they add their falliablity to the mix.

well i agree that it "is said to be the word of god" the question is, is it really.

 

[Toxick]

thats exactly my point, people wrote about their experiences and their observations, because they are people, they add their falliablity to the mix.

well i agree that it "is said to be the word of god" the question is, is it really.

I say it is.

I belive the bible was written while under the influence of God - while you obviously do not. Therefore I will say the man's falliablity is not added to the mix, while you say it is.



I guess there's nothing more to say about that.

 

[Midnightrider]

I say it is.

I belive the bible was written while under the influence of God - while you obviously do not. Therefore I will say the man's falliablity is not added to the mix, while you say it is.



I guess there's nothing more to say about that.

so i guess the book of morman is also the infalliable word of god? Joseph Smith said he was directed by god in the translation......