Will they go to heaven?
- Thread starter wxtornado
- Start date
wxtornado
The Other White Meat
Okay, so here's the overview -- it's really simple.
Either Jesus is the sole way to Heaven, or he's not.
If there is more than one path to Heaven, why is Jesus necessary?
If Jesus is the sole way to heaven, then what happens to people who haven't heard of him?
If they are all condemned, haven't they been cheated and consigned to eternal torment unjustly?
If they are not condemned in their ignorance, are they granted a reprieve? If they are granted a reprieve, then doesn't it make sense to stop telling people about Jesus and thereby guarantee heaven to all people because they are ignorant of Jesus?
And if they must have Jesus to get into heaven, what is the timeframe whereby the choice to choose Jesus became viable? Was it 1 millisecond after Jesus arose? 1 minute later? An hour? A day? Week / month / year /decade / century / millenia?
What about the Amazon guy who died later the same day Jesus rose from the dead. What happens to that guy? Heaven or Hell?
Either Jesus is the sole way to Heaven, or he's not.
If there is more than one path to Heaven, why is Jesus necessary?
If Jesus is the sole way to heaven, then what happens to people who haven't heard of him?
If they are all condemned, haven't they been cheated and consigned to eternal torment unjustly?
If they are not condemned in their ignorance, are they granted a reprieve? If they are granted a reprieve, then doesn't it make sense to stop telling people about Jesus and thereby guarantee heaven to all people because they are ignorant of Jesus?
And if they must have Jesus to get into heaven, what is the timeframe whereby the choice to choose Jesus became viable? Was it 1 millisecond after Jesus arose? 1 minute later? An hour? A day? Week / month / year /decade / century / millenia?
What about the Amazon guy who died later the same day Jesus rose from the dead. What happens to that guy? Heaven or Hell?
Dondi
Dondi
Eh-hmm....I'd like to take a crack at this. I'd like to start with something that the Apostle Paul addressed to the Athenians on Mars Hill, who among their statues had one addressed to "TO THE UNKNOWN GOD":
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:24-28
I draw you attention to the portion in bold. Three points I'd like to establish acording to this passage:
1) God made the world and everything in it, therefore He also made these Amazonians.
2) God placed these Amazonians where and when they are. Therefore, He knew how isolated they would be.
3) It specifically states that the REASON for God placed them in their times and places appointed is so "that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us."
So evidently, there is no apparent disadvantage for these people to be where they are. Moreover, if there is anyone responsible for getting the "gospel" out to them, it is God, who placed them is such isolation.
I would contend that they have been given a measure of "light". How?
Two methods in which God can communicate to those who have never heard:
1) Through nature. Again, I quote Paul:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" - Romans 1:18-20
They have the witness of creation in which a man intuitively knows that they are created by Something. That they are "wonderfully and fearfully made" as the Psalmist says. By looking to the wonderments of nature, these primitive people have some idea that there is Something greater than themselves.
2) Through conscience.
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." - Romans 2:14-15
So not only is there an intution of Something greater, but also that they must also be accountable to that Something greater. Even though they do not have the Law, they have the conviction of conscience that guides them from right and wrong. I'm not saying that that conscience is perfect in whatever culture they are in. But it is evident. Look at how many primitive tribes try to appeal to the gods through some kind of sacrifice or appeasement. They may not know what they worship, but they know it's there.
Jesus in Luke's gospel said, "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48) Whatever light these Amazonians have been given, they are responsible and will give an account. I'm confident that God will judge fairly and take in account that they have little or no Bible knowledge about Him. I don't think He's going to give a pass to everyone in the tribe, for we all must individually give account of our lives. In this case, God will judge them according to how they have treated one another in some offshoot of "Love thy neighbor", which the Bible calls the Royal Law.
Where does Christ bear in all this? I have to believe that He died for them as well and will raise them up those who are judged to have fullfilled the Royal Law. God knows each person's heart.
For each element of "light" a person is exposed to, he/she is responsible to respond to that light. That is true for any revelation of God that may come one's way. Assuming that the Bible is the Word of God, then having heard the standard of the Law and the Gospel of Christ, then one is going to be held accountable to what he/she has heard. To much is given, much will be required.
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:24-28
I draw you attention to the portion in bold. Three points I'd like to establish acording to this passage:
1) God made the world and everything in it, therefore He also made these Amazonians.
2) God placed these Amazonians where and when they are. Therefore, He knew how isolated they would be.
3) It specifically states that the REASON for God placed them in their times and places appointed is so "that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us."
So evidently, there is no apparent disadvantage for these people to be where they are. Moreover, if there is anyone responsible for getting the "gospel" out to them, it is God, who placed them is such isolation.
I would contend that they have been given a measure of "light". How?
Two methods in which God can communicate to those who have never heard:
1) Through nature. Again, I quote Paul:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" - Romans 1:18-20
They have the witness of creation in which a man intuitively knows that they are created by Something. That they are "wonderfully and fearfully made" as the Psalmist says. By looking to the wonderments of nature, these primitive people have some idea that there is Something greater than themselves.
2) Through conscience.
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." - Romans 2:14-15
So not only is there an intution of Something greater, but also that they must also be accountable to that Something greater. Even though they do not have the Law, they have the conviction of conscience that guides them from right and wrong. I'm not saying that that conscience is perfect in whatever culture they are in. But it is evident. Look at how many primitive tribes try to appeal to the gods through some kind of sacrifice or appeasement. They may not know what they worship, but they know it's there.
Jesus in Luke's gospel said, "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48) Whatever light these Amazonians have been given, they are responsible and will give an account. I'm confident that God will judge fairly and take in account that they have little or no Bible knowledge about Him. I don't think He's going to give a pass to everyone in the tribe, for we all must individually give account of our lives. In this case, God will judge them according to how they have treated one another in some offshoot of "Love thy neighbor", which the Bible calls the Royal Law.
Where does Christ bear in all this? I have to believe that He died for them as well and will raise them up those who are judged to have fullfilled the Royal Law. God knows each person's heart.
For each element of "light" a person is exposed to, he/she is responsible to respond to that light. That is true for any revelation of God that may come one's way. Assuming that the Bible is the Word of God, then having heard the standard of the Law and the Gospel of Christ, then one is going to be held accountable to what he/she has heard. To much is given, much will be required.
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wxtornado
The Other White Meat
So you think, yes, they will go to hell if they don't accept jesus?
Dondi
Dondi
I didn't say that. Read it again. God will judge each individual according to the light he/she have been given.
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aps45819
24/7 Single Dad
Dondi
Dondi
Damn rightthey can keep Gandhi company
I wouldn't be so sure that Gandhi is in hell. He rejected Christianity not because of the message, but because of the people. How unfortunate that we Christians turn people off so.
How so?
Dondi
Dondi
The term C.S Lewis used was "anonymous Christians". The idea that someone in another religion of belief system lived in such a manner that they warrant salvation through Christ. God wants obedience, which is better than sacrifice. If one is living to love others in the best of their ability, love thy neighbor, they are fulfilling the Law. I'd find it rather unfair if God stiffed them on a technicality just because they happen to be born in another religion when they are living in a manner that reflects the Royal Law.
Don't get me wrong, I think Christ is the Savior, but God knows whose heart warrant saving.
wxtornado
The Other White Meat
So your answer is no then?
foodcritic
New Member
Dondi
I didn't say that. Read it again. God will judge each individual according to the light he/she have been given.
__________________
If you want to learn to love better, you should start with a friend who you hate. - Anon.
First we have the old testament as a hisorical guide. Is there any doubt of the destruction that took place to the people that rejected God? No.
Many of my Christian friends have adopted this open gospel message which is to say the God will save everyone in the end because after all "God so loved the world". The problem is that it's the bible, which is in fact what we should be reyling on not the RCC or the Baptist church etc. While these may be helpful they are not the final authority, the bible is.
We must igore many bible truths to if we think those lost (and we were all lost whether we live in usa or tibet) souls will be saved. This is just a sample of that:
Matthew 7:13 (Jesus speaking)
[ The Narrow and Wide Gates ] "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
John 1
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Luke 13:
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
Philp. 2
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
This is such a small sample of verses. But the point is that while we (christians) would like to say that the lost are not going to hell the evidence does not support that. Is it possible...sure anything is possible but the evidence of scripture seems to outweigh my notions of what is just and un just.
We perish because of our SIN not where we live. That fact does not chage.
Dondi
Dondi
No, my answer is maybe.
foodcritic said:
First of all, I'm not a universalist. There will be some that go to hell and there will be some that go to heaven. And you are absolutely right, there is a narrow road.
I believe in the born again experience. I believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man can come to the Father, but by Him. But I also believe that not everyone who professes the name of Christ is truly born again, and the Bible backs this up:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." - Matthew 7:21-23
So what is the will of the Father? Well, skip over some chapters in Matthew:
"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." - Matthew 25:34-40
This is the kind of person God is looking for. And you might ask, how is this different that the works that are described in Matthew 7? It has to do with the attitude of the heart. God is not looking for people who do good works, but people who will love, people who will sacrifice their lives in compassion and mercy for people.
When someone finds this kind of love in their heart, they have found God, they have found Jesus, they have found His Holy Spirit. For the Way, the Truth, the Life that Jesus said He was encompassed this kind of love and compassion. The whole point of the Law was to love God and love thy neighbor.
I contend that there are those in different religions that have found life in Christ, though they might not realize it. I've heard story after story of those whose lives were changed to make them compassionate people. Those who find this love are born again. It is the fruit of the Spirit.
What of Christ's sacrifice? The purpose of sacrifice was to atone for sins and bring people back into a relationship with God. And while I believe that Christ died for our sins, I'm open to the possibility that that application could apply to those who are repentent of their sins regardless of who and what they are, if they seek God with all their heart and seek to get things right. It is a universal sacrifice.
Having said this, I still believe that it is better to follow Jesus in the light that you have. That as one gains the knowledge of Christ through scripture, that person can grow. But I also believe that those lacking knowledge, but are seeking God, will be taught by the Holy Spirit how to live and how to love.
You only need to go to the example of the Good Samaritan to see the truth in this. This Samaritan was not a Jew, in fact the Jews despised and ostrecized the Samaritans because they didn't believe as they do. They have erred in doctrine. They weren't considered true Jews, yet in this story, this Good Samaritan is the one who had compassion on his neighbor, even for his enemy.
Remember, Jesus gave this parable in response to a certain lawyer's question of how to inherit eternal life:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." - Luke 10:25-28
Radiant1
Soul Probe
You're right, the various Christian denominations are not always in agreement on specifics. This is partly why (amongst others) I chose the Apostolic (i.e. Catholic and/or Orthodox) practice. It's historically original and can trace it's authority to Jesus Himself.
If an agnostic and/or atheist wants to dialogue with Christians unfortunately they will have to choose between Apostolic or Protestant as to who they will take as an authority on the faith.
I don't intend to be devisive amongst Christians, but it's a fact and has to be acknowledged if one is going to have any intellectual honesty. :shrug:
This_person
Well-Known Member
Fundamentally, we are on the same side (Jesus saves). In detail, we have differences of opinion on an esoteric question - what about those that don't know.
OT philosophy provides for children under a certain age to not be responsible for their sins (kind of the whole point of the "coming of age" of a bar/bat mitzvah - becoming responsible to God for your actions). Where we disagree is whether that still holds true NT, and whether that covers people who are unaware of The Word. Being aware of The Word makes it an esoteric question for those of us on this forum.
BadGirl
I am so very blessed
I've seen you make reference to "intellectual honesty" several times before, and I have to admit, I'm not really sure what that means.
I guess it's because I'm a dumb liar. (get it....intellectual honest vs dumb liar?)
So, clue me in, please. Just what is Intellectual Honesty, anyway?
Radiant1
Soul Probe
When I refer to the term I mean that being honest about something instead of putting up a front for the sake of furthering one's argument.
For example, it would be beneficial to the Christian cause toward those who don't believe (atheists or agnostics for example) if all of us were in agreement but the reality is, is that I don't believe we are and I have to be honest about that even if it does not further the purpose at hand. In other words, I wouldn't lie or hide a fact just to further my argument.
I guess I don't suffer fools gladly and really have a pet peeve when I perceive people as being deliberately obtuse or being a smart ass for the sake of being a smart ass instead of being real or honest about a subject, especially when it comes to religion because matters of faith are important IMO. :shrug:
Make sense?
This might be helpful: Rigour
BadGirl
I am so very blessed
Thanks for the response. I'm not sure if I truly believe in the concept of IH (because I think it is much more complicated than a simple "I'm right, you're wrong", but I appreciate you getting back to me on it. Truly.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
It's not a matter of "I'm right, you're wrong". A debate can continue by all means but it's more a matter of "you may have a point" or "I'll acceed your point" or even "I'll give that some thought".
This_person
Well-Known Member
I agree. Conceding when demonstrated that A) you're wrong, or B) the point being conceded does not conflict with your own view is a huge part of a good discussion/communication. It's respectful to yourself, primarily, and to the others with whom you are discussing something.