Wish Mormons Would Stop Coming By

[Starman3000m]

James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Good Input...thank you.

Exactly, Spring10, and you have rightly exemplified that your faith is not dead through the work of your witnessing the truth that is found in the Holy Bible.

However, what other observers must understand is that we don't do works to "earn our salvation" we do faith-based works because of a changed heart and renewed nature that Jesus called being Born Again.

If "works" earned a person's way to heaven then who is to say how much "work" it has to take to merit salvation and gain entry into heaven?

That is the thrust behind cults who control their followers and coerce them into working for their specific religion rather than working for the Truth of God's Plan of Salvation that is found in the Holy Bible and summed up in the verse you cited:

"I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

And the following verse proclaims that it is not works that earns salvation; it is by faith in Jesus Christ, the Divine Son of God:

from Romans, Chapter 5:

8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[MMDad]

If you believe in God, Creationism, and the Great Flood, the fossils left behind and the timelines in the bible are more believeable than evolution. (do some research on carbon dating if you don't trust me).

You young earthers never disappoint. Better to stick your head in the sand than to understand anything that intrudes on your prejudices.

I refuse to believe that God made us as intelligent, inquisitive beings if He did not want us to explore our world and investigate. The refusal of you young earthers to even try to understand the world around you is a refusal to use what God gave you.

It's always amazing to see people like you completely discount carbon dating without actually understanding it's use, value, and limitations. Seeing you bring it up makes me realize that you are unwilling to even attempt to understand, or to consider anything but your own misguided, myopic ideas. It's pointless to try to get you to investigate your world, so I won't even try.

 

[Starman3000m]

You young earthers never disappoint. Better to stick your head in the sand than to understand anything that intrudes on your prejudices.

I refuse to believe that God made us as intelligent, inquisitive beings if He did not want us to explore our world and investigate. The refusal of you young earthers to even try to understand the world around you is a refusal to use what God gave you.

It's always amazing to see people like you completely discount carbon dating without actually understanding it's use, value, and limitations. Seeing you bring it up makes me realize that you are unwilling to even attempt to understand, or to consider anything but your own misguided, myopic ideas. It's pointless to try to get you to investigate your world, so I won't even try.

In other words, you place your faith in carbon-dating because you believe it is accurate. OK - so it's obvious you do not accept the Biblical account of Noah's Ark and the Great Flood whose torrents of rain and rushing/receding waters created many of the earth's topographical characteristics which could have caused major erosion and land upheavals in a relatively short time compared to millions of years. (As we see happen in torrential rains and floods today)

However, here's another thing to consider about carbon-14 Dating:

“The accuracy of carbon-14 dating relies on faulty assumptions, and is subject to human bias. At best, radiocarbon dating is only accurate for the past few thousand years. As we’ve seen though, even relatively youthful samples are often dated incorrectly. The Biblical record gives us an indication of an earth that is relatively young. The most reliable use of radiocarbon dating supports that position. This method of dating, overall, tends to be as faulty and ill conceived as the evolutionary model that is was designed to support.”

“Perhaps the best description of the problem in attempting to use the Carbon-14 dating method is to be found in the words of Dr. Robert Lee. In 1981, he wrote an article for the Anthropological Journal of Canada, in which stated:”

"The troubles of the radiocarbon dating method are undeniably deep and serious. Despite 35 years of technological refinement and better understanding, the underlying assumptions have been strongly challenged, and warnings are out that radiocarbon may soon find itself in a crisis situation. Continuing use of the method depends on a fix-it-as-we-go approach, allowing for contamination here, fractionation there, and calibration whenever possible. It should be no surprise then, that fully half of the dates are rejected. The wonder is, surely, that the remaining half has come to be accepted…. No matter how useful it is, though, the radiocarbon method is still not capable of yielding accurate and reliable results. There are gross discrepancies, the chronology is uneven and relative, and the accepted dates are actually the selected dates.”

THE PROBLEMS WITH CARBON-14 DATING

 

[itsbob]

Bob, since you said the mormons use the King James version these passages are out of that version of the Bible.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

Not everyone will go to heaven. You can't just be a good person and go to heaven. Satan has many tricks to lead people down the wrong paths, and there are many. There is one bible, and it's filled with the truth. When other religions start putting their writings, books, and "truths" before the one and only bible, there are lies involved.

King James Bible - Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I am often amazed that the most important thing in our lives is either ignored or trivilized as just something to think about once in a while, or argue about without studing. There is proof that Satan has hardened hearts to the point where they can't even consider there is a God, and if there is (he, she, it depending on your religion), everyone is welcome into heaven no matter what you do, or what you believe. It's called Universalism.

This is the real truth.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You don't even have to believe me. Just go dust off that family bible that's sitting on a shelf somewhere in your home, or sitting in a drawer and start reading the New Testament and before we know it, you'll be posting promising messages instead of taking the defensive against good Christians that are just trying to save others from the broad path taken.

And what part of any of this has ANYTHING to do with the Mormon church.. other than the hate you've been taught to have towards them??

YOU trying to save people from the MORMONS?? You think someone not on ANY path would do wrong choosing the LDS church? You elieve in your hatred SOOO much that you would rather have them pick no path, unless it is your path, how pathetic.

Yep.. call in reinforcements, you're losing this one. Call in your pastor, tell him the talking points aren't working, and the hate speech he spews isn't having the right effect..

 

[itsbob]

Religion, as a whole, begets more hatred, and non-acceptance than any agnostic or atheist would .. EVER..

You MUST believe in what I believe or you are guilty of heresy..

You pray to the same God, but you don't do it right, you should die..

You don't sit, stand, kneel, sit in the right sequence, you're going to rot in hell!!

Pathetic.

I would think a TRUE Christian would be thankful that one believes in God, and is on the right path, and are GENERALLY good people. Who cares what building they go into on Saturday.. but that really isn't what Christianity teaches is it??

Interesting I never see a Mormon in here badmouthing Catholics, or Baptists.. or Born Agains.. about how THEY preach or pray.. makes you wonder who are the better Christians/ People.

 

[Starman3000m]

Religion, as a whole, begets more hatred, and non-acceptance than any agnostic or atheist would .. EVER..

You MUST believe in what I believe or you are guilty of heresy..

You pray to the same God, but you don't do it right, you should die..

You don't sit, stand, kneel, sit in the right sequence, you're going to rot in hell!!

Pathetic.

I would think a TRUE Christian would be thankful that one believes in God, and is on the right path, and are GENERALLY good people. Who cares what building they go into on Saturday.. but that really isn't what Christianity teaches is it??

Interesting I never see a Mormon in here badmouthing Catholics, or Baptists.. or Born Agains.. about how THEY preach or pray.. makes you wonder who are the better Christians/ People.

C'mon, Bob, no one is "spewing" hatred against Mormons as you make it sound. Mormons are decent, friendly and well-meaning individuals who are sincerely believing what the LDS church adheres for them to believe. One can be shunned and excommunicated from Mormonism for not following the LDS tenets - just like what happens in all other religious denominations.

The facts presented in this thread are being made through comparing theological teachings; the comparison between what the Holy Bible states and the comparison to what Mormon Doctrine teaches which is in great contrast to the Holy Bible.

Joseph Smith proclaimed himself to be a prophet of God, the same as Muhammad and they both claim to supersede the teachings of the Biblical Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Both deny Jesus' claim of being the only true way to Salvation through His Atoning Blood. If Jesus is right - Joseph Smith and Muhammad are wrong. Mormons trust Joseph Smith's teachings more than they trust the Biblical teachings of Jesus just like Muslims trust the teachings of Muhammad more than they believe the Biblical accounts of Jesus' crucifixion and being The Son of God.

There is Only One Truth. Herein are some quotes from Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism and I'll leave it up to you to say it's alright for Mormons to believe him rather than believe the accounts of the True historical/Biblical Jesus:

Teachings from Mormonism:


Joseph Smith boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.
"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409). Click here to see this quote in context.


Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was more correct than the Bible.
"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book," (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).

Joseph Smith made a false prophecy (one of several).
". . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394). Click here to see this quote in context.

Joseph Smith said mothers have babies in eternity and some are on thrones.

"A question may be asked, ‘Will mothers have their children in eternity?' Yes! Yes! Mothers, you shall have your children," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10). "Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10).


Joseph Smith said there are many gods.
"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all," (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5).

Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

Joseph Smith said God was once a man.
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).

Joseph Smith said our greatest responsibility is to seek after our dead.
"The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 7).

Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old.

Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman's Journal, vol. 3, p. 263-264. See reprint in Mormonism -- Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, p. 4.)

Source:
Interesting Quotes from Joseph Smith, the Founder of Mormonism | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

BTW: Do you have Mormon acquaintances?

 

[Bustem' Down]

I wish mormon missionaries would stop coming by my house. They all have the same scripted speech (more or less), and an almost hypnotic look on their faces as they jump right into telling me how "Jesus once walked in North America," and "Joseph Smith was an American prophet," and "God seeks to restore the only 'true' church." I find it rather eerie because they all seem brainwashed. I have told before to not come by anymore, but they have come by again since then.

I feel the same way about all Christians, I've already asked the local Presbyterian church to take me off thier mailing list twice. If I want a Sundy school lecture or to be saved, I will look you up, until then leave me alone.

 

[itsbob]

BTW: Do you have Mormon acquaintances?

Yep, and I don;t think they need to be saved from themselves, or shown a different path.

As far as Christians go, I think they have a better handle on the concept than most.. Apparently.

 

[GWguy]

I have not had Mormons visit...(I am ok with that).

However: Since one of their teachings involve the 10 "lost tribes" of Israel being brought to America and degenerating into Indian heathen (Joseph Smith's time was none-to-kind to Amerindians)...then...

Lets do the DNA testing!
Just 2600 years ago they were practicing Jews...and now they are "Red skins"
so...we should have little difficulty in tying together the Nez Pierce and the tribe of Dan...right?

I am not being facetious: The Mormons lead digs every years down among the Central American ruins...trying to prove the connection. It is kind of sad.

Probably not necessary, since the last few to visit here were black.

One day I was out trimming the hedges when a couple walked up and started their speech. I just told them I was not the home owner, just the handyman, and the homeowner wasn't home. They accepted that and moved on...... surprised me that they didn't try to talk to whomever they could.

 

[ItalianScallion]

WOW! Lot's of stuff here.
I 'd like to make 3 simple points for a moment if I may?

1) Not everyone can be right and almost everyone can be wrong.

2) I am well trained in Christianity. Back in 1992 I responded (on purpose) to the "Latter Day Saints" ad on TV for a visit by their "elders". They came to my door and I invited them in. I gave them some bottled water to drink and one of them even asked to use my bathroom.
We talked for about an hour and a half and they left. The next week one of their "more experienced elders" came by and we talked for another hour and a half. We shook hands, they left and I've never seen them since.
"The word of God is sharper than any double edged sword....and it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart". They got cut and marked my house as one not to visit anymore.

3) Let's use a real life example here folks:
If a doctor said: "don't worry about the pain in your chest, it's only stress". You'd feel good and relieved, right?
Then another doctor says: "get help immediately, your heart is weak, has blockages and you might die". You'd feel pretty bad but you'd much rather take the first doctor's advice (because no one likes bad news).
The following week you die and realize the 2nd doctor was right, why didn't I listen. Now it's too late and nothing can be changed. I think you see my point here. Sometimes, the bad news is really the good news.
It's too important & permanent of an issue to NOT take the time to find out who really is right. Only a fool wouldn't.
So, WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT GOD? You do not get another chance once you're dead. Don't be a fool!

 

[Highlander]

WOW! Lot's of stuff here.
I 'd like to make 3 simple points for a moment if I may?

1) Not everyone can be right and almost everyone can be wrong.

2) I am well trained in Christianity. Back in 1992 I responded (on purpose) to the "Latter Day Saints" ad on TV for a visit by their "elders". They came to my door and I invited them in. I gave them some bottled water to drink and one of them even asked to use my bathroom.
We talked for about an hour and a half and they left. The next week one of their "more experienced elders" came by and we talked for another hour and a half. We shook hands, they left and I've never seen them since.
"The word of God is sharper than any double edged sword....and it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart". They got cut and marked my house as one not to visit anymore.

3) Let's use a real life example here folks:
If a doctor said: "don't worry about the pain in your chest, it's only stress". You'd feel good and relieved, right?
Then another doctor says: "get help immediately, your heart is weak, has blockages and you might die". You'd feel pretty bad but you'd much rather take the first doctor's advice (because no one likes bad news).
The following week you die and realize the 2nd doctor was right, why didn't I listen. Now it's too late and nothing can be changed. I think you see my point here. Sometimes, the bad news is really the good news.
It's too important & permanent of an issue to NOT take the time to find out who really is right. Only a fool wouldn't.
So, WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT GOD? You do not get another chance once you're dead. Don't be a fool!

Exactly why I plan to stay a Catholic. Happy Easter my fellow Christians!

 

[libby]

While I do not agree with the theology of the LDS church, the few Mormons I've met adhere to it fervently. I think that the depth of sincerety in any person is a far greater indicator of their salvation than anything else.
That said, I do believe there is one Truth. However, if that Truth is a gift, how can we hold a Mormon (or whoever) responsible for not having said gift?
The fact is, a Bible Christian contradicts his own theology. If the Holy Spirit can speak to IT or Starman, why can He not speak to Joseph Smith? You have no way to be sure your Truth is correct.
Additionally, earlier in the thread someone (I think it was IT) mentioned that the LDS have added books to the Holy Bible, which is indicative of their error. However, I think one can make the argument that the Bible itself is an "addition" because Jesus Christ established a Church, not a book. He never told anyone to write anything down, so you have the same problem that you lay on the LDS door.
I happen to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but if you're going to try to make a case against anyone, you better be sure the error does not apply to you also.

 

[Starman3000m]

While I do not agree with the theology of the LDS church, the few Mormons I've met adhere to it fervently. I think that the depth of sincerety in any person is a far greater indicator of their salvation than anything else.
That said, I do believe there is one Truth. However, if that Truth is a gift, how can we hold a Mormon (or whoever) responsible for not having said gift?
The fact is, a Bible Christian contradicts his own theology. If the Holy Spirit can speak to IT or Starman, why can He not speak to Joseph Smith? You have no way to be sure your Truth is correct.
Additionally, earlier in the thread someone (I think it was IT) mentioned that the LDS have added books to the Holy Bible, which is indicative of their error. However, I think one can make the argument that the Bible itself is an "addition" because Jesus Christ established a Church, not a book. He never told anyone to write anything down, so you have the same problem that you lay on the LDS door.
I happen to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but if you're going to try to make a case against anyone, you better be sure the error does not apply to you also.

Hi libby, glad to see you in this discussion. You say that you believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and that is good. That is exactly what we are to use as a standard whereby we are to "test the spirits" to see whether they are of God or whether they are deceptions.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
(1 John 4:1)

So when I prayed about whether the Mormon Church was the right one, the Holy Spirit revealed that it was a false doctrine. God hears a sincere prayer and helps when one is honestly searching for Him. As mentioned (John 4:24) was vividly brought into my thoughts:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)

That was proof for me to comprehend that Joseph Smith could not have seen a physical "personage" of God, the Father, alongside the other person that Smith claimed to be Jesus Christ. The Holy Bible states that God is invisible but Jesus is the reflective image of God to this world.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Colossians 1:12-15)

Joseph Smith's "revelation" even counters those you are taught within Catholicism because Smith is now saying that God is not invisible (as the Bible states) and that God is a separate individual when Christianity teaches that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.(1 Timothy 3:16)

In other words, Jesus, being manifest in the flesh is the only way mankind was able to see God in a physical form. The Holy Bible thus refutes Joseph Smith's account where he claimed to have visibly seen two individuals, both God and Jesus, appear together (side-by-side) as separate "personages".

Now, if you really believe the inerrancy of the Holy Bible, you will also comprehend that Satan is a deceiver and a liar and will even use religions to deceive and mislead people away from God's True Plan of Salvation that is only given through the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ. The "revelations" claimed by Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Jehovah's Witnesses, Sun Myung Moon, etc., all represent major followings of sincere "religious" people - but guess what? Those denominations deny the Lordship and Deity of Jesus Christ. That is why the Holy Bible warns us of the following:

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

If you really believe that the Holy Bible is the True Word of God then you should be able to comprehend that any other doctrine, such as Mormonism, Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Sun Myung Moon, etc., that denies the Biblical account of God's Plan of Salvation through Christ's Atoning Blood is termed an antichrist. In other words they teach that you can save yourself through "good works" and that Jesus really isn't "the Christ" Saviour of the world:

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)

As mentioned before, Mormons are good, decent and friendly people but according to the Holy Bible, a person can have a "form of godliness" but still be in denial that the only True Way of Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone and no one can be saved by trying to "earn" his/her way to heaven just by doing "good religious works."

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

By the way, when I was explaining to the Mormon missionaries that God showed me the LDS is not the true church, I quoted that verse (Ephesians 2:8-9) to them and one of the LDS missionaries looked startled and the other slowly kept repeating that verse about three times. As you know, salvation in Mormonism (as in other cults) is based upon individual works and teach that personal faith in the substitutionary death and Atonement of Jesus is not enough to earn salvation.

What do you believe libby? Was Joseph Smith a true prophet of God and pass the test according to the Holy Bible which you believe to be inerrant?

If you really believe that Joseph Smith could have been a true prophet of God then it stands to reason that you should be Mormon also because he declared that all religions (specifically Roman Catholicism) were in error and that the Book of Mormon is more reliable than the Holy Bible. However, if you can see that Smith was deceived through the "revelation" that gave the start to the Mormon doctrine than we should be praying for those who are involved in a denomination that is holding them captive through misinformation and leading them away from God's True Plan of Salvation.

The responsibility that Jesus Christ gave His followers is to share the Good News of Salvation through His Atoning Blood. As you should know, many good, decent, friendly and well-meaning people are misled though religions that deny God's Plan of Salvation through the Atoning Blood of Jesus.

If you believe the Holy Bible to be inerrant, then you should also understand that there are many who claim to be Christians and appear "religious" through their many good works and are deceived by what the Bible states are doctrines of demons manifest through Satan's misinformation:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1)

False doctrines may also have a reference to "Jesus" which may sound good but it is all part of the deception. Therefore, when you analyze the "Jesus" they refer to you will see that it is not the Jesus described in the Holy Bible; it is another Jesus and another gospel as referred to in the Holy Bible:

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(2 Corinthians 11:4)

Here is what Jesus said, according to the Holy Bible:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-22)

 

[tiltedangel]

go to the door with a ouija board in hand. They won't say a word, they will just turn around and leave.

 

[ItalianScallion]

While I do not agree with the theology of the LDS church, the few Mormons I've met adhere to it fervently. I think that the depth of sincerety in any person is a far greater indicator of their salvation than anything else.
That said, I do believe there is one Truth. However, if that Truth is a gift, how can we hold a Mormon (or whoever) responsible for not having said gift?
The fact is, a Bible Christian contradicts his own theology. If the Holy Spirit can speak to IT or Starman, why can He not speak to Joseph Smith? You have no way to be sure your Truth is correct.
Additionally, earlier in the thread someone (I think it was IT) mentioned that the LDS have added books to the Holy Bible, which is indicative of their error. However, I think one can make the argument that the Bible itself is an "addition" because Jesus Christ established a Church, not a book. He never told anyone to write anything down, so you have the same problem that you lay on the LDS door.
I happen to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but if you're going to try to make a case against anyone, you better be sure the error does not apply to you also.

Libby, as much as I believe you're sincerity, your post is really confused and contradictory.
The depth of one's sincerity has ZERO to do with their salvation. One can be "sincere" and still be lost. JW's, Mormons, etc., are very sincere but look what they believe.
One can believe the inerrancy (sp?) of the Bible and still not put it into practice. James spoke against this in his letter. (James 1v22-25). How can you say you believe the inerrancy of the Bible and yet say that Joseph Smith has the same Holy Spirit? The Bible clearly speaks against Mormon theology. And, how COULD he have the same Holy Spirit? Sure, some true Christians differ a bit on their beliefs but not on primary Bible truths.
So, if you think the Bible is inerrant, why do you speak against it by saying it's "an addition"??
God wrote down the 10 commandments why would He not want his other Words written down? Oral tradition changes much more than printed words, (in this case) that's why God had those men write them down.
I think there's more to your statement about "believing in the inerrancy of the Bible", am I right? If my Catholic upbringing still rings in my ears, don't you believe that it has to be interpreted by your church leaders only??? All Catholic dogma (what a word) comes from various Vatican Councils but the Bible should be where their "dogma" comes from.
I really don't want to start a Catholic/Protestant debate here, (really I don't). I just am trying to make a point as to why we CANNOT have everyones theology as the truth. (someone tell Oprah this!)

 

[libby]

IT,
I'm not going to bother with every detail you are using to say LDS are not saved. Suffice to say that I stand by my original statement, that their sincerety in their search for God will surely be taken into account by the merciful and omniscient Lord. ONLY God knows the depths of their hearts, and the reasons why they are what they are.
I've said this before, I'll say it again. As a Catholic, I believe in One Truth, and that the Catholic Church has the Full Truth. That said, what if the reason you left the Catholic Church is because of someone's bad example when you were a child? What if you were a victim of the priest abuse? Do I, as a Catholic who believes is One Truth, really think God is going to send you to Hell because you rejected something that hurt you so badly?
Catholic priests are not the only abusers, either.
FOXNews.com - Sexual Abuse of Minors in Protestant Churches - FOX Fan

What if someone rejects "Bible alone Protestantism" or Christianity (can't think of anything else to call it) because of sexual abuse?

I do not believe Smith was a prophet at all, but I do not believe Protestant dogma, either.
That I called the Bible "an addition" was only to illustrate a point. You cannot have it both ways, IT. You cannot simultaneously say that there is no authority for the Scriptures, yet say there is one Truth. Your assertion that you are right every time because you get it from such and such a place in the Bible, is the very same argument that everyone else who disagrees with you uses.
Since this is not a Catholic/Protestant debate, I'll go no further.

 

[Starman3000m]

IT,
I'm not going to bother with every detail you are using to say LDS are not saved. Suffice to say that I stand by my original statement, that their sincerety in their search for God will surely be taken into account by the merciful and omniscient Lord. ONLY God knows the depths of their hearts, and the reasons why they are what they are.
I've said this before, I'll say it again. As a Catholic, I believe in One Truth, and that the Catholic Church has the Full Truth. That said, what if the reason you left the Catholic Church is because of someone's bad example when you were a child? What if you were a victim of the priest abuse? Do I, as a Catholic who believes is One Truth, really think God is going to send you to Hell because you rejected something that hurt you so badly?
Catholic priests are not the only abusers, either.
FOXNews.com - Sexual Abuse of Minors in Protestant Churches - FOX Fan

What if someone rejects "Bible alone Protestantism" or Christianity (can't think of anything else to call it) because of sexual abuse?

I do not believe Smith was a prophet at all, but I do not believe Protestant dogma, either.
That I called the Bible "an addition" was only to illustrate a point. You cannot have it both ways, IT. You cannot simultaneously say that there is no authority for the Scriptures, yet say there is one Truth. Your assertion that you are right every time because you get it from such and such a place in the Bible, is the very same argument that everyone else who disagrees with you uses.
Since this is not a Catholic/Protestant debate, I'll go no further.

libby,

If you do not believe that Joseph Smith was a "prophet" and do not believe the Protestant "dogma" either then you obviously adhere to the Vatican council ruling that only the Roman Catholic Church is the "true church" and the pope's assertion that no one can be saved outside of the Catholic church system. You cannot be lukewarm when it comes to the Truth and your faith in God's Plan of Salvation.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16)

If you really study the Holy Bible you will see that even the Roman Catholic Church is in error. That is why we are called to "test" all spirits and dogmas whether they are of God. I understand why you want to defend your faith in the Roman Catholic Church and the infallibility of the pope and that is what all other religions do in their specific faith. But the Truth is, There Is Only One Truth and whether you wish to accept it or not, organized religions - yes, including the Vatican council and RCC, have misled people all along.

This may be a topic for another thread but there is Biblical proof to see why the Protestant Reformation had reason to question papal authority in its claim to be God's "exclusive representative" on earth and why it is right to question and challenge the RCC dogma that controls people through fear by teaching that a person cannot be "saved" unless one is baptized into the Catholic Church. I hope you do know that to be the truth of RCC teaching. And if that is the case, your wavering that Joseph Smith could have had the same Holy Spirit give him a "revelation" goes contrary to the teachings of your own faith.

Sorry to be blunt about this but in the words of the Holy Bible:

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. (Proverbs 27:6)

ItalianScallion and I along with others have found that "religious dogmas" are exactly what Jesus challenged during His days. We share this info to you as a friend but you count us as enemies and then you defend other "religions" as being OK to believe in. There can only be one true faith, libby, and you need to decide whether truth is in what your priest proclaims or in what Jesus proclaims in the Holy Bible:

Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation. (Luke 20:46-47)

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
(Matthew 6:2)

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. (Matthew 6:2)

Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. (Matthew 6:16)

Now, since we have just celebrated Easter, you may be interested to know that "Christendom" has been taught by the Vatican that Jesus was crucified on Friday and raised on Sunday. That is not true if indeed Jesus was in the tomb for three days and three nights as the Holy Bible proclaims!

 

[libby]

This may be a topic for another thread but there is Biblical proof to see why the Protestant Reformation had reason to question papal authority in its claim to be God's "exclusive representative" on earth and why it is right to question and challenge the RCC dogma that controls people through fear by teaching that a person cannot be "saved" unless one is baptized into the Catholic Church. I hope you do know that to be the truth of RCC teaching. And if that is the case, your wavering that Joseph Smith could have had the same Holy Spirit give him a "revelation" goes contrary to the teachings of your own faith.

You're right, it probably is for another thread, but here we go anyway. The reformers did have a right to call onto the carpet those in the heirarchy who abused their power. They also abused the some doctrines, I do not need to run from that fact of history to believe the Catholic Church. Unlike you, I can separate the doctrines from the people. The failures of the Jewish people in the OT had no bearing on the Truth itself. Failures of individual Catholic persons has no bearing on the Truth of Catholic doctrine, and as you might argue, failures of (self proclaimed) Bible Christians to "properly interpret Scripture) has no bearing on the inerrancy of Scripture.
You can come up with a litany of names and offenses in the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, but it won't change my opinion of the what the Church teaches. It is up to me only to do my very best to adhere to the Truth.
As for "fearing" people into baptism, even IT said earlier in another thread

I know a few people that have often told me that they are scared to death of the thought of going to hell. They don't talk much about God's love (that I conveyed to them) so, if being scared of hell helps them come to Christ, I'm all for it.

 

[Starman3000m]

You're right, it probably is for another thread, but here we go anyway. The reformers did have a right to call onto the carpet those in the heirarchy who abused their power. They also abused the some doctrines, I do not need to run from that fact of history to believe the Catholic Church. Unlike you, I can separate the doctrines from the people. The failures of the Jewish people in the OT had no bearing on the Truth itself. Failures of individual Catholic persons has no bearing on the Truth of Catholic doctrine, and as you might argue, failures of (self proclaimed) Bible Christians to "properly interpret Scripture) has no bearing on the inerrancy of Scripture.
You can come up with a litany of names and offenses in the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, but it won't change my opinion of the what the Church teaches. It is up to me only to do my very best to adhere to the Truth.
As for "fearing" people into baptism, even IT said earlier in another thread

libby, regarding being "feared into baptism" being OK, I think you have to really comprehend which "Baptism" IT was speaking about. It is definitely not baptism into a church dogma i.e. immersion or sprinkling of water by a Catholic priest. True baptism is the Biblical "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" which is totally different and is what brings about the Born Again experience that Jesus spoke about. Just being baptized into water is something anyone can claim to do - but the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what only God can do and it is what brings about the spiritual change and conversion into faith that Jesus taught - not what church dogmas teach.

 

[libby]

Okay, Starman, now you're changing the subject again; you want to get into baptism and the reasons for?
We can get into this on another thread.
Back to Mormons. The bottom line is that either people exercise "personal interpretation" of the Bible, with the Holy Spirit leading a person, or they can not. Since Bible Christianity do not provide for one infallible source of interpreting the inerrant book, each person's "interpretation" will be colored by his/her own human biases, Starman and IT included.
Your theology gives Joseph Smith the very same defense of his "revelations" as you claim for yourself.
There is no way out of that truth.