Wish Mormons Would Stop Coming By

[Starman3000m]

Okay, Starman, now you're changing the subject again; you want to get into baptism and the reasons for?
We can get into this on another thread.
Back to Mormons. The bottom line is that either people exercise "personal interpretation" of the Bible, with the Holy Spirit leading a person, or they can not. Since Bible Christianity do not provide for one infallible source of interpreting the inerrant book, each person's "interpretation" will be colored by his/her own human biases, Starman and IT included.
Your theology gives Joseph Smith the very same defense of his "revelations" as you claim for yourself.
There is no way out of that truth.

There is only One Truth that God's Holy Spirit reveals to those who place faith in Jesus Christ as being the Divine Son of God, Lamb of God, Risen Lord, Saviour of mankind and Messiah who will return to establish Peace on Earth for one-thousand years. Those (and other Bible Truths) are tenets rejected by Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Jehovah's Witnesses, Sun Myung Moon, et al.

So, when you say they have the same "defense" to claim their revelations are true, who do you think they are getting their "revelations" from? The True God of the Holy Bible or some other spirit?

OK Back to the Mormons: They use the name of "Jesus" in their denominational stance: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Are you sure they are representing the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible or another Jesus that some deceitful spirit brought as a "revelation" to Joseph Smith?

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
(2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

That should be quite clear why people in assorted "religions" are able to be deceived by other doctrinal teachings that are not of God at all and that conflict with what the Holy Bible states.

 

[libby]

There is only One Truth that God's Holy Spirit reveals to those who place faith in Jesus Christ as being the Divine Son of God, Lamb of God, Risen Lord, Saviour of mankind and Messiah who will return to establish Peace on Earth for one-thousand years. Those (and other Bible Truths) are tenets rejected by Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Jehovah's Witnesses, Sun Myung Moon, et al.

So, when you say they have the same "defense" to claim their revelations are true, who do you think they are getting their "revelations" from? The True God of the Holy Bible or some other spirit?

OK Back to the Mormons: They use the name of "Jesus" in their denominational stance: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Are you sure they are representing the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible or another Jesus that some deceitful spirit brought as a "revelation" to Joseph Smith?

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
(2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

That should be quite clear why people in assorted "religions" are able to be deceived by other doctrinal teachings that are not of God at all and that conflict with what the Holy Bible states.

Starman, what is so hard about what I'm saying? I do not agree with their theology at all. I know that they do not believe in the Triune God. That is totally not the point I am trying to make.
I guess I won't belabor the point...
I'll go check out your baptism thread. Although I'm leaving for the afternoon, I'll surely touch base later...

 

[Starman3000m]

Starman, what is so hard about what I'm saying? I do not agree with their theology at all. I know that they do not believe in the Triune God. That is totally not the point I am trying to make.
I guess I won't belabor the point...
I'll go check out your baptism thread. Although I'm leaving for the afternoon, I'll surely touch base later...

The point, libby, is that Mormons do need to be warned that they are following a false and deceiving doctrine that is contrary to the Holy Bible's teaching. If you have a friend who is in eminent danger of falling into a pit would you not try to warn him/her? That is what the Holy Bible says is happening to those who are being misled by false prophets and we are to at least point out that they are headed in the wrong direction literally!

I do not proclaim faith in any organized religion but faith in only what the Holy Bible states and how it compares to any other religion that proclaims their prophet/teachers and leaders represent the "truth" of God.

 

[2ndAmendment]

While I do not agree with the theology of the LDS church, the few Mormons I've met adhere to it fervently. I think that the depth of sincerety in any person is a far greater indicator of their salvation than anything else.
That said, I do believe there is one Truth. However, if that Truth is a gift, how can we hold a Mormon (or whoever) responsible for not having said gift?
The fact is, a Bible Christian contradicts his own theology. If the Holy Spirit can speak to IT or Starman, why can He not speak to Joseph Smith? You have no way to be sure your Truth is correct.
Additionally, earlier in the thread someone (I think it was IT) mentioned that the LDS have added books to the Holy Bible, which is indicative of their error. However, I think one can make the argument that the Bible itself is an "addition" because Jesus Christ established a Church, not a book. He never told anyone to write anything down, so you have the same problem that you lay on the LDS door.
I happen to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but if you're going to try to make a case against anyone, you better be sure the error does not apply to you also.

The Bible states plainly that even the demons believe that Jesus is real. Think the demons are saved? A person can sincerely believe the moon is made of green cheese; it does not make it so.

Jesus is God incarnate. If He is not, then His sacrifice cannot save anyone. His resurrection is no different than that of Lazarus and holds no hope for us. If Jesus is God incarnate, then the doctrines of several religious organizations are incorrect.

 

[This_person]

They have the right to come by and attempt to express their beliefs. We each have the right to listen, or politely decline to listen. :shrug:

 

[Starman3000m]

They have the right to come by and attempt to express their beliefs. We each have the right to listen, or politely decline to listen. :shrug:

Or, we have the right to take the opportunity to share the Real Good News of the New Testament Jesus and then let them decide whether to listen or politely decline to listen.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)

As mentioned to libby, if you see a friend (or anyone) in danger of falling into a pit, would you not try to warn them that they are headed in the wrong direction (literally) ?

 

[Nonno]

I wish mormon missionaries would stop coming by my house. They all have the same scripted speech (more or less), and an almost hypnotic look on their faces as they jump right into telling me how "Jesus once walked in North America," and "Joseph Smith was an American prophet," and "God seeks to restore the only 'true' church." I find it rather eerie because they all seem brainwashed. I have told before to not come by anymore, but they have come by again since then.

Have you tried putting a sign in your yard which says, "Dogs and Mormans Keep Off the Grass"?

 

[libby]

The Bible states plainly that even the demons believe that Jesus is real. Think the demons are saved? A person can sincerely believe the moon is made of green cheese; it does not make it so.

Jesus is God incarnate. If He is not, then His sacrifice cannot save anyone. His resurrection is no different than that of Lazarus and holds no hope for us. If Jesus is God incarnate, then the doctrines of several religious organizations are incorrect.

I must be mixing up threads, because I thought I was clear. Yes, I believe a person can be saved if they are sincerely seeking God and trying to do His will. If they have not come to the Fullness of Truth yet, for whatever reason, I would lean toward their salvation.
Now will you please address my question, which perhaps I posed on another thread.
Do you think a person is damned who is (for instance) raised as a Christian, believes, but then becomes the victim of abuse and rejects all of Christianity.

Is that person saved?

 

[Highlander]

Have you tried putting a sign in your yard which says, "Dogs and Mormans Keep Off the Grass"?

I can understand someone not wanting to let dogs on their lawn. After all, they leave little Nonnos all over the place to step in. Mormons usually don't.

 

[This_person]

Or, we have the right to take the opportunity to share the Real Good News of the New Testament Jesus and then let them decide whether to listen or politely decline to listen.

That, too, is an option.

At least they're taking the time to spread their Good News.

 

[Starman3000m]

I must be mixing up threads, because I thought I was clear. Yes, I believe a person can be saved if they are sincerely seeking God and trying to do His will. If they have not come to the Fullness of Truth yet, for whatever reason, I would lean toward their salvation.
Now will you please address my question, which perhaps I posed on another thread.
Do you think a person is damned who is (for instance) raised as a Christian, believes, but then becomes the victim of abuse and rejects all of Christianity.

Is that person saved?

First of all, libby, "being raised a Christian" does not mean that one is saved. I was "raised Christian" but had no real concept of what it meant to be "born again" as Jesus proclaimed nor did I have a personal relationship with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit at that time.

Now to answer your question, if a person was truly a born-again Christian, not just a professing Christian, I sincerely believe that they would not reject Christianity at all. This is exemplified by many truly Christian believers who have endured hardships, persecutions, physical and emotional abuses at the hands of others yet they did not turn against their knowledge of God's Saving Grace through Jesus Christ.

Those who reject "Christianity" because of abuses by their church are people who sincerely believed and trusted the church - not God. That is to say, to those people, it was the church that represented "Christianity" when all along it is not organized religion but a special relationship with God through Jesus' Atoning Blood and being Born Again of the Holy Spirit that represents the True Faith called Christianity. Which by the way is a misnomber - but that is the topic for another thread.

 

[MMDad]

(note i am not saying Mormon's beliefs are any more ridiculous than any other beliefs, just that Hessian feels the Dinosaurs existed with man, yet makes fun of Mormons belief that Indians were 2500 year old ancestors of Jews)

You must not be familiar with Hessian, Starman, and Spring10's version of the Bible. You know, the one with these parts:

"And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl and pterodactyl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat and it was so. "

"And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field, and to every stegoauraus; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

"Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female, and dinosaurs take three."

It MUST be in there, right? I mean, they wouldn't be asserting that the Bible says dinosaurs and humans coexisted if it wasn't actually in the Bible, would they?

Or are they adding their own spin and interpretation without having anything in the Bible to actually refer to?

Nah, they wouldn't do that. After all, that would make them just as bad as the Catholics, Mormons, and Jews that they hate so much.

 

[MMDad]

Those who reject "Christianity" because of abuses by their church are people who sincerely believed and trusted the church - not God.

Why are you so filled with hate? Go ahead and claim you are not, but your words shine through and show your true hateful nature.

 

[libby]

I said, "Do you think a person is damned who is (for instance) raised as a Christian, believes, but then becomes the victim of abuse and rejects all of Christianity."

Now please, take a stab at it. Would a person who loves Jesus Christ, is saved, etc., but then finds themselves a victim of some crime, especially perpetrated by clergy, and falls so far into despair that they reject Christianity, be saved?

 

[This_person]

Why are you so filled with hate? Go ahead and claim you are not, but your words shine through and show your true hateful nature.

Belief that Christianity is bigger than "the church" is hateful?

Or, am I not smart enough to catch the sarcasm?

 

[MMDad]

Belief that Christianity is bigger than "the church" is hateful?

Or, am I not smart enough to catch the sarcasm?

He made the statement that anyone who is abused and then rejects christianity never believed in the first place. Don't fall into his trap of thinking this is a discussion of church vs. Christianity - he's trying to duck an honest question that Libby had by diverting attention.

It's incredibly stupid for him to think he knows what is in the heart of everyone in that situation. He is either stupid, pompous, or hateful. Or it could be a combination of the three.

 

[Starman3000m]

I said, "Do you think a person is damned who is (for instance) raised as a Christian, believes, but then becomes the victim of abuse and rejects all of Christianity."

Now please, take a stab at it. Would a person who loves Jesus Christ, is saved, etc., but then finds themselves a victim of some crime, especially perpetrated by clergy, and falls so far into despair that they reject Christianity, be saved?

According to the Holy Bible if a person willfully rejects the Truth of God which is given by the Holy Spirit then they are in danger of eternal damnation; not my words but the words of Jesus. Read it - it's in your Bible as well: Jesus calls it "Blasphemy"

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12: 30-32)

The reason rejecting Christianity becomes "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is because it is by the Holy Spirit that God reveals His Truth unto those who seek His Truth. Thus, a person who willfully and knowingly accepts Jesus Christ as Saviour and then willfully and knowingly rejects Him has rejected the Gift of Salvation that God offered. Since man has free will, man can choose to tell God thanks but no thanks - and then their fate is that of losing what God had offered them through Christ.

 

[Starman3000m]

He made the statement that anyone who is abused and then rejects christianity never believed in the first place. Don't fall into his trap of thinking this is a discussion of church vs. Christianity - he's trying to duck an honest question that Libby had by diverting attention.

It's incredibly stupid for him to think he knows what is in the heart of everyone in that situation. He is either stupid, pompous, or hateful. Or it could be a combination of the three.

Your choice of words, MMDad, also reveal what is in your heart.

 

[libby]

According to the Holy Bible if a person willfully rejects the Truth of God which is given by the Holy Spirit then they are in danger of eternal damnation; not my words but the words of Jesus. Read it - it's in your Bible as well: Jesus calls it "Blasphemy"

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12: 30-32)

The reason rejecting Christianity becomes "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is because it is by the Holy Spirit that God reveals His Truth unto those who seek His Truth. Thus, a person who willfully and knowingly accepts Jesus Christ as Saviour and then willfully and knowingly rejects Him has rejected the Gift of Salvation that God offered. Since man has free will, man can choose to tell God thanks but no thanks - and then their fate is that of losing what God had offered them through Christ.

So, on the one hand, we are in agreement; that a person can willfully and knowingly reject Truth and thereby risk losing his salvation. On the other hand, a key component to my question was the reason for rejection of Jesus Christ. Does such abuses as exist, and indeed seem to be quite prevalent in our culture, mitigate the culpability of an individual who rejects the Lord as a result?

 

[Starman3000m]

So, on the one hand, we are in agreement; that a person can willfully and knowingly reject Truth and thereby risk losing his salvation. On the other hand, a key component to my question was the reason for rejection of Jesus Christ. Does such abuses as exist, and indeed seem to be quite prevalent in our culture, mitigate the culpability of an individual who rejects the Lord as a result?

According to the Holy Bible, the culpability is not only as much against the victim but greatly against the perpetrator that caused that person to fall away in the first place. However, for the person who says the are a "believer" but then they reject Christianity because the church did such and so to them they still fall under the following example as stated in the Holy Bible. Its in your Bible as well:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)