Starman3000m
New Member
If one is truly, sincerely and genuinely saved, libby, why would they want to give up the Gift of Salvation that they could not have earned on their own and lose their spiritual relationship with the One True God of Creation? This all boils down to genuine Salvation that comes about through the Born-Again experience that Jesus spoke of. Can a person fall back into temptation of a sin (even a thought can be considered sinful, according to Jesus) and still remain saved. The answer is Yes, because we are still imperfect but need to seek immediate repentance from any sin that breaks our relationship and fellowship with God and strive to live as holy of a life as possible. Here is what the Bible states, and it's in your Bible as well:
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2: 1-6)
Now, for those who claim to be saved and know the Truth as the verse in my previous post stated (Hebrews 6:4-6) - they are in danger of losing their salvation if they willfully and knowingly, by free-will, choose to reject that Salvation that they received and choose to live a life without God's guidance in their lives or choose to accept another religious dogma that rejects the Deity of Jesus Christ after they had been brought to the knowledge by the Holy Spirit of God's (not the church's) True Plan of Salvation:
Here is what the Holy Bible (not me) states about that situation indicating that the individual was most likely not sincerely committed in his/her faith of being a born again believer and most likely never genuinely saved in the first place. In other words, anyone can claim and seem to be a good "Christian" by going through religious motions but they are not fooling God who knows the sincerity of their heart.This is found in your Bible as well:
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:18-19)
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ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
Hijack city here. How did Mormons visiting, turn to Catholics & abuse???
The RCC has @ 60% truth to correct your statement.
I told you before that I left the Catholic church because there were too many "thou shalt nots"! I felt like a restricted boy in a cage and I wanted out. So I rebelled and did everything wrong that I could (without a conscience to stop me) for 17 years and boy was it fun!
If I had been abused by any person, I know for sure that God would provide a way to remove any hatred I had for that person. As Starman said earlier, rejecting any church is different from rejecting God. I can reject every church today and still love God and be saved BUT; Just because one was abused by a priest does NOT make it mandatory for God to take them into Heaven. And again, I was not abused by anyone as a child.
Sweetheart, where did I ever say : "there is no authority for the Scriptures, yet say there is one Truth"??? There is only one truth and it is the Scriptures. ANYTIME I quote the Bible I assure you I am inflate-able...or un-flappable...or whatever the word is you use your leader in that magic chair. What causes problems is the wrong meaning that people put on Bible verses. Your problem is that you do exactly what Jesus Himself said NOT to do in Matthew 15 v 6: "You nullify the Word of God with your traditions".
I find it laughable that people criticize me for believing what some men of old wrote but they persist in quoting flawed or human based sources as a rebuttal.
Lady, you're sooooooo far off base here. The Bible is the "one infallible source of interpreting the inerrant book". Scripture interprets Scripture. It's when people take a verse or passage out of it's intended context that it's meaning gets changed. It is not open for us to interpret. It was written with a particular meaning in mind.
This is how we can prove the Mormon books wrong and all others wrong. They are internally inconsistent and most of the places mentioned in the Mormon books never did exist.
Where did you "copy & paste" that from??? Notice the spelling error? Well, at least they can't blame you for it....it's not your's. MormOns.
Maybe if you actually read and understood the Bible you'd have seen Job 40 & 41???
As expected, this here is the key component in our discussion of this particular issue.
A person who is saved has free will, yet you are all-but-saying it is impossible for him to lose his salvation. I do see that you are stopping short of a full blown "yes" or "no". A straight answer would be refreshing.
So, a person who appears to be saved, but somewhere down the road rejects Jesus Christ, was never saved in the first place; so say you, correct?
Faith/salvation/grace (whatever you want to call it) is a gift from God. I'm thinkin' we all agree on that point.
My question to you then is- How can a person who was never saved in the first place, i.e. doesn't have the grace of God to help him along, ever stand a chance to be saved? For without the grace of God, we can do nothing.
Never saved=never had a chance. That is not the God I serve.
I would appreciate something other than myriad Scripture quotes. I do know my Bible and I know all of the passages you quote, and those that support my position. However, I'd like to see you use reason (God is reason, right?) and explain.
mAlice
professional daydreamer
Starman3000m
New Member
libby said:
libby, apparently I did not make it clear enough in my earlier posts but this is the answer - but first, let me please start of with a verse from the Holy Bible that helps explain what I am about to say. OK - You say that you know your Bible and this one is in your Bible as well so here goes:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Now, you state: " How can a person who was never saved in the first place, i.e. doesn't have the grace of God to help him along, ever stand a chance to be saved?"
The Point Is: They Had Their Chance And Rejected It For Something Else!
You see, libby, the Holy Bible is clear that God loves the whole world, all of mankind, and Jesus' Atonement provides the way to eternal life for those who accept God's Plan of Salvation. That is The Only Way according to John 14:6 and John 3:16 - that's the Gospel Message plain and simple.
The point is - When unsaved people hear that message they just scoff and reject that message through their own-free-will for whatever reason. They either choose to believe a deceptive lie from another cult/religion or choose to believe a secular ideology which teaches that God does not exist and that the Holy Bible is only a fairy tale. You may have read some comments by other posters in this forum that state that exact thought. They have been told the Gospel Message here but they choose to ridicule it and ignore the warning that their soul is in eternal peril if they do not respond to the Free Offer of Salvation that God gives through the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ.
In other words: Unsaved people choose to reject God. It's not that God didn't try to reach them and offer His Divine Grace and Gift of Salvation. It's that when God reached out to them, they pulled back and chose to live their life in the world system that is totally against Christ - in other words the system of antichrist. As Jesus stated: He that is not with me is against me; (Matthew 12:30)
This is why Jesus also said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is The Only Unforgiveable Sin and it is the action of the Holy Spirit who reveals God's existence to this world through God's Truth in the Bible as well as by believers who were once lost but now saved who are praying for and trying to warn their family, friends and others.
In other words, when the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to an unsaved person that God is trying to reach - that person willingly chooses to reject God's call.
That is the free-will that they were given.
Summarizing: God's Grace can only help someone along only after they have accepted God's Grace which was offered to them through God's Holy Spirit.
So the answer to your question of how can an unsaved person receive God's Grace to help them along is this: It was offered and they refused it. They chose to remain unsaved by their own free-will. Although God reaches out and offers His Love to mankind, God will not force anyone to love and accept Him.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)
Unsaved people choose to reject that Love.
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This_person
Well-Known Member
Being abused could certainly lead someone to begin to question their faith - that's obvious and for sure.
Sorry for getting in the middle without reading the whole thing. AYW.
I appreciate you taking the time to spell this out with your own words, as opposed to copying and pasting Scripture.
So, I still disagree with you 100% that a person cannot lose their salvation, but at least we had an actual discussion about it.
Starman3000m
New Member
OK. As long as you have been made aware that the Holy Bible (not man's wishful thinking) specifically states that There Is No Second Chance. The choice of what you believe from here on is up to you.
Neither I nor the Catholic Church says that there is second chance. We agree that this life is our test.
I don't know where you get that "man's wishful thinking" business.
Starman3000m
New Member
libby, apparently the Roman Catholic Church does not believe that every sin a person has ever committed (specifically venial sins) are washed away and cleansed by the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ once a person becomes a born-again believer.
The RCC doctrine is teaching a falsehood by saying that Christ's Atoning Blood only partially removes the sin of a Catholic parishioner but that he/she must go into a spiritual state of "purgatory" in order to expiate those sins. Thus, the initial Salvation of a person here on earth was not sufficient enough.
This sounds more like other religions that teach the doctrine of reincarnation -that a person gets to come back to life until they get it right then they can go on to heaven. In other words: Purgatory is the equivelent to the false teaching of reincarnation but instead of coming back to earth to re-live another lifetime, purgatory makes it an intermediate spiritual realm of waiting until your "minor sins" can be dealt with.
The Truth is This: Jesus forgives every one of a person's sins once and for all when he/she accepts Him as personal Lord and Saviour.
Jesus does not say, "OK - I'll get you half-way to heaven but then there will be a waiting place where you have to be dealt with until you really get your act cleaned up." That, basically, is the doctrine of "purgatory" that the RCC teaches and it is false!
Is the following therefore what you believe?
The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory (from the Latin word purgare, meaning "to make clean or purify") affirms that there is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."
"Venial faults" are those sins of human frailty that are not as serious as the more damning sins, such as murder, but still serve to render the person less than pure before God. Unrepented venial faults still need to be dealt with. That is the purpose of purgatory.
Purgatory exists as a way-station on the path to heaven. Prayers of the faithful on Earth help lessen the time spent there, and indulgences, or forgiveness, can still be granted by the pope. But the doctrine points out the Catholic view of the seriousness of sin and the purity of God. Even though sin is atoned for by Christ, the results of that sin carry over into actions and attitudes, and these must be dealt with.
The official Church doctrine lists page after page of arguments from the Bible and tradition, but points out that the sixteenth-century Protestant reformers decided that purgatory did not exist. It was a figment of Catholic imagination. As such, it is a doctrine unique to Catholicism.
Source: purgatory: Definition from Answers.com
That is contradicting the Holy Bible that states:
Psalm 103:
8: The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
9: He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10: He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11: For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
12: As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Conclusion: The RCC apparently does not believe the full Saving Grace that comes totally through Jesus as Saviour if it teaches that when people die they still carry with them a bag full of minor sins into a spiritual waiting area. Purgatory is a false teaching and gives Catholics the false sense of security that since one cannot be perfect in this earth their minor sins will be taken away later on in death and then they can go on to heaven.
The Holy Bible states:
1 John, Ch. 5, verses:
9: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14: And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17: All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19: And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20: And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21: Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Highlander
ONE NATION UNDER GOD
Oh, so everyone in one of the largest churches in the world, the Roman Catholic Church is wrong and you are right because of YOUR interpretation of the bible. Interesting. Well, as far as I'm concerned, YOU are wrong. That's just the way it is and you have to accept that. You may know the bible but you are still wrong. You can try to tell me you're not, but it doesn't matter because I know you are wrong. You are lost and aren't going to heaven because I said so. Understand?
Just out of curiosity are Starman and ItalianScal the same person? Both are a little "way out there."
Bavarian
New Member
I think the Mormons are as bad as all the other Protestants. I don't like the Baptists coming around trying to sell their heresy.
People's souls must be purified before getting into Heaven, hence the need for Purgatory for the remission of venial sins and the forgiven Mortal sins.
It has been said that the difference between Catholics and Protestants is that we Catholics believe God created Man, while the Protestants believe Man created God, hence the proliferation of Protestant Sects, people choose a "Church" that teaches what they want to here, not necessarily what God wants us to know.
People's souls must be purified before getting into Heaven, hence the need for Purgatory for the remission of venial sins and the forgiven Mortal sins.
It has been said that the difference between Catholics and Protestants is that we Catholics believe God created Man, while the Protestants believe Man created God, hence the proliferation of Protestant Sects, people choose a "Church" that teaches what they want to here, not necessarily what God wants us to know.
T
toppick08
Guest
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
Yes and no.
Yes the RCC is wrong whenever and where ever it contradicts the Bible. Without it you have no basis for truth.
and, no, Starman and I have never met but we are related by "blood" (Jesus' blood).
P.S. We're a LOT "way out there".
You are more lost than the man on the milk carton. Where did you get that lie from: "man created God"???
My Jesus purified me from ALL sins. Your Jesus needed help, obviously, so he had to create purgatory since he couldn't do it himself. And he needs others to tell him what to do: Mary, St Peter, St Jude, St Christopher, etc., and all the others money grabbing saints you pray to.
Good Lord, Bavarian read your Bible before you leave here would ya??!!
You are soooooooooooo mis-informed my friend.
Starman3000m
New Member
Yo, Highlander, Dealing with God is not a game where you can believe that there is "safety in numbers." There are as many large religious organizations such as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims who will lay claim that because they have a large number of followers they must be right. The fact is, people are like sheep and easily led astray when they don't challenge their leaders and only accept what is spoon fed to them. Religious indoctrination is just that; indoctrination.
As far as your logic that the RCC is one of the largest churches in the world and therefore must be right, here is what Jesus states:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)
For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)
I only know ItalianScallion through these forums and consider him a dear brother through our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. His posts are truly those of a born-again believer who has escaped the clutches of false teaching and religious bondage and has been set free through the Saving Grace of God and through the Truth as Jesus stated:
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:36)
BTW, Along with ItalianScallion, there are others like 2A who are excellent contributers for sharing the Truth that is found in the Holy Bible.
itsbob
I bowl overhand
WOW, your God is a total ass.
I'd choose another one if I were you.
Personally I prefer the FSM.. he's more forgiving, and understands man will is weak and we are fallible. Your's is a jerk.. I bet the FSM can beat your God's ass...
itsbob
I bowl overhand
Using Starman's and Italian Pony logic, the only TRUE church would be the Jewish..
Seeing how the New Testament is an addition to the Old Testament (Tanakh), a story of Jesus.. in addition to the stories of the old testament of Adam and Moses.. THe Christians of toady are not following the true scripture, but learning from an additional amended version of the original.. not much different than what the Mormons do with the New Testament..
SO the Old Testament told the story of Moses.. Christians added the stories of Jesus, and called it the New Testament.. and the Mormons added Nephi and Aaron, told their stories of their arrival into the new land, and called it the Book of Mormon..
So which church is the most right?? I'd think the one with the original manuscript.. and the one that doesn't belive that Christ has arrived, and nobody has walked the earth that met their criteria of their prophecies to be considered the 'Saviour'.
I mean if they have the ORIGINAL story, the original manuscript, and it's proven that Jesus didn't meet THEIR prophecies of THEIR true work, than in fact, Jesus is not who the Christians portray him to be.. I mean it IS the original manuscript.. the ORIGINAL story.. Everyone else just plagiarized and built their religions from theirs.. Just like the Mormons did to the Christian religion..
Seeing how the New Testament is an addition to the Old Testament (Tanakh), a story of Jesus.. in addition to the stories of the old testament of Adam and Moses.. THe Christians of toady are not following the true scripture, but learning from an additional amended version of the original.. not much different than what the Mormons do with the New Testament..
SO the Old Testament told the story of Moses.. Christians added the stories of Jesus, and called it the New Testament.. and the Mormons added Nephi and Aaron, told their stories of their arrival into the new land, and called it the Book of Mormon..
So which church is the most right?? I'd think the one with the original manuscript.. and the one that doesn't belive that Christ has arrived, and nobody has walked the earth that met their criteria of their prophecies to be considered the 'Saviour'.
I mean if they have the ORIGINAL story, the original manuscript, and it's proven that Jesus didn't meet THEIR prophecies of THEIR true work, than in fact, Jesus is not who the Christians portray him to be.. I mean it IS the original manuscript.. the ORIGINAL story.. Everyone else just plagiarized and built their religions from theirs.. Just like the Mormons did to the Christian religion..
Did you, or did you not, read the Scriptural examples I cited? I can play ping pong with verses, too, I just don't think it's very productive.
Cutting to the chase, I do not expect you to come to believe in the RCC doctrine of purgatory as a result of my feeble attempts. What I hope to accomplish is only that you understand that there is a reason for the doctrine, quite solidly based in Scripture. I can accept what you believe, and why you believe it; I just think you are wrong. I would like to use this religion forum to explain the teachings of my church so that accusations of "extra-biblical", "man-made", and "power hungry popes" can be put to rest. RCC doctrines, every single one of them, can be found within the story of salvation history. However, you are 100% correct when you accuse us of not adhering only to the Bible.
Let's remember, as we continue on these three threads (which are getting a little muddled in my head, to be honest) that if the Bible is the only source of coming to know Jesus Christ, you have effectively shut out 14 centuries of civilization. The written word was hard to come by and very expensive (I'm sure you've heard this argument before), not to mention that most people were illiterate until a few hundred years ago. Where does your insistence on the Bible leave them. Keep in mind, Starman and IT, there was no internet, no libraries, no FedEx or Amazon.com. Please explain how anyone, anywhere, got ahold of the word of God.
Starman3000m
New Member
LOL - well, I'd say you are getting a bit warmer to the truth bob. The fact is, yes, the Old Testament is the original teaching of God's relationship to mankind but the first to receive it was Abraham, a non-Jew at the time. The Jews and Israelites lived under the Old Covenant with God which their leaders continually broke, however their prophecies spoke of the coming Messiah who would be from the line of David and would save them from their sins.
Jesus was that fulfillment and the New Testament is actually The New Covenant between God and mankind which was fulfilled as prophesied:
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (Jeremiah 31:31)
So, yes, faith in Jesus as Messiah is in fact Jewish in origin and the Gentiles (non-Jewish people) are able to partake of the New Covenant between God and mankind that brings Salvation through faith in Christ's Atoning Blood and people no longer need to make blood offerings at the altar as required under the Old Covenant. As you may know, Jesus was Jewish and the very first several thousand men, women and children who became followers of Jesus were all Jewish. Those Jews came to know Him as Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah)
Yes, Orthodox Judaism rejects Jesus today as they did back then and that is why the Orthodox leaders were instrumental in having Jesus put to death.
If things go as planned, Orthodox Judaism will rebuild the Third Temple of God in Jerusalem and reinstate blood sacrifices as part of their worship. Talmudic Laws will be enforced to a greater degree. When we see this happening, then know that the real end of days is near because it is in Jewish prophecy that two Messiahs will appear; Moshiach ben Yosef (son of Joseph) and Moshiach ben David (son of David). Jewish prophecy teaches that Moshiach ben Yosef will appear and be killed - afterwhich chaos in the world will erupt for a short period of time and there will be great persecution against the Jews. Then, before their annihilation, Moshiach ben David will appear to establish God's peace on earth when swords are turned into plowshares and rule of the earth will be from Jerusalem.
The point is this, Jesus will return again to fulfill that final plan of prophecy but cannot do it until this earth undergoes a seven (7) year period of control by the antichrist system that develops a One World Government and One World Religion.
In the meanwhile, Orthodox Judaism still awaits two Messiahs.
That time is not far away.