Archaeologists, scholars dispute Jesus documentary

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
PsyOps said:
In reality this doesn’t matter much. We aren't arguing about free choice or good or evil; we are arguing the existence of God. Bottom line.


I need to correct this comment: I don't totally discount the existence of God -- I discount the existence of the messy God (or gods) theists assert. There very well may be a God, but just like there are no triangles with 25 angles, there cannot be this impossible contradiction that most theists proffer as "God".

Secondly, no theist has ever offered anything demonstrable at all in trying to support their foundation, and instead try to detour the solid criteria for knowledge claims, i.e., they make excuses as to why God can't be demonstrated, or they make that ridiculous "Disprove a negative" claim as if it isn't an utterly absurd demand, so this leads me to conclude that God does not exist as well.

And finally, if the God that I've talked about exists (i.e., omnipotent and omniscient, removing from us any option of free will, and the one who must have authored evil), then I have a hard time reconciling why I would worship such a montrous being. But if that God does exist then my unbelief has been long ago set into place, and I have no power to believe otherwise in any event.

This all amounts to a convergence of evidence supporting a solid conclusion that this God does not exist. I concluded that theism is to be rejected, thus am an atheist. But I don't totally discount the idea that a God (or gods) could exist. It is possible, I suppose, though very unlikely.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
wxtornado said:
I need to correct this comment: I don't totally discount the existence of God -- I discount the existence of the messy God (or gods) theists assert. There very well may be a God, but just like there are no triangles with 25 angles, there cannot be this impossible contradiction that most theists proffer as "God".

A related point - assuming that the existence of a single god could be proven, that wouldn't automatically validate the other doctrines of any of the theistic religions.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Nucklesack said:
Hears a simple question, not taking credit for it, read it in a Sci-Fi book somewhere (probably L Ron Hubbard :killingme )
  1. Can God create an Indestructible Asteroid? Yes/No
  2. Can God then Destroy his Indestructible Asteroid? Yes/No

How can question 2 be answered affirmative if God is Omnipotent?
How can question 2 be answered negative if God is Omnipotent?
Well that's like the age old question of "Does God have a belly button?"
If no, then we were not created in his image.
If yes, then God was born.

Oh the silly questions, that really mean nothing, can the human mind make. :lol:
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Bustem' Down said:
Well that's like the age old question of "Does God have a belly button?"
If no, then we were not created in his image.
If yes, then God was born.

Oh the silly questions, that really mean nothing, can the human mind make. :lol:

These are questions of LOGIC, not theology. They say nothing about God, but about semantics and language.

e.g. by declaring a force "unstoppable" you negate the entire existence of "immovable". You might just as well ask "can you break an unbreakable object?" because it's the same kind of silly question.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
wxtornado said:
It does it for me just fine; I have free will in my worldview. You however, have an illusion of free will at best. Since your God saw you turn left infinitely back in time, and you just turned right, well, what exactly does that say about his omniscience? Omniscience or free will, ya can't have both!

You absolutely can.

You haven't shown one whit how knowledge of a future event negates free will. This is why I've mentioned the argument *without* God to show how absurd it is. If I, a mere mortal could look into the future and see you do something - my *knowledge* of that event doesn't change the fact that you're going to do it. If everyone on the planet knows except you - it doesn't change your decision.

The only knowledge that negates free will is if *YOU* know the outcome - and find you can't change the result.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Nucklesack said:
If a God is Omnipotent its a legitimate question.

It's still logic.

For example, the Bible says that it's impossible for God to lie - because obviously whatever God declares becomes truth. It's just silly logic to ask if God is capable of destroying something that he made indestructible. It's like asking what number follows inifnity. The concepts negate each other.
 

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
SamSpade said:
You absolutely can.

You haven't shown one whit how knowledge of a future event negates free will. This is why I've mentioned the argument *without* God to show how absurd it is. If I, a mere mortal could look into the future and see you do something - my *knowledge* of that event doesn't change the fact that you're going to do it. If everyone on the planet knows except you - it doesn't change your decision.

The only knowledge that negates free will is if *YOU* know the outcome - and find you can't change the result.

Okay, let's take God out of the equation then. You, a mere mortal, in your omniscient crystal ball, saw me turn left on July 20, 2008 at 6pm. As a matter of fact, you wrote down which way I turned on this piece of paper in this envelope. At 6pm on July 20, 2008, with my free will, I turned right. Remember, you already saw me turn left in your omni crystal ball. Do you remember?

Now, tell me what you saw in your omni crystal ball?
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
wxtornado said:
Okay, let's take God out of the equation then. You, a mere mortal, in your omniscient crystal ball, saw me turn left on July 20, 2008 at 6pm. As a matter of fact, you wrote down which way I turned on this piece of paper in this envelope. At 6pm on July 20, 2008, with my free will, I turned right. Remember, you already saw me turn left in your omni crystal ball. Do you remember?

Now, tell me what you saw in your omni crystal ball?

The direction you actually turned.

How about this - I SEE YOU TURN RIGHT in front of my eyes.
What direction did you turn?
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
brendar buhl said:
If I were wxtornado I would have long since lost my patience and given up. You guys aren't listening to or addressing his point. It is a very frustrating trait of Christians. They have a very hard time admitting that some one else has a good point or that there might be a flaw in how they have always thought about things.
Or Christians have faith that is not shaken by earthly understanding.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
wxtornado said:
Lol, tell me about it :howdy: I ask a simple question: "Can you turn right?" and *still* no answer, and it's a simple "yes" or "no"!
Anyone can turn right or left at any time. You, as you have professed, on the broad road to hell, can turn around at any moment and choose to follow God's way. It is your choice. The big picture is, in the grand scheme of things, God wins whether you turn around or don't. God loves you. He want you to choose His way. He will not force you.

I reiterate, the Bible clearly states that the future for individuals is their choice. Here is yet another example.
Revelation 3: 5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
If you name can be erased from the book of life, then you were a believer and walked away. The entire book of Luke 15 is Jesus giving examples of sinners returning to walk in the grace of God's salvation.
Luke 15

The Lost Sheep

1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him.

2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them."

3So He told them this parable, saying,

4"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

5"When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'

7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

The Lost Coin

8"Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?

9"When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!'

10"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

The Prodigal Son

11And He said, "A man had two sons.

12"The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me ' So he divided his wealth between them.

13"And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.

14"Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.

15"So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16"And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.

17"But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!

18'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;

19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'

20"So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.

21"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

22"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;

23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;

24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

25"Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.

26"And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.

27"And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'

28"But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.

29"But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;

30but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'

31"And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.

32'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"
Every sinner is like the Prodigal Son. God the Father rejoices over the return to His flock of each sinner that chooses to return to Him.

Jesus would not have given these examples if it were not possible for a person to choose their own path. At the end of this system of things, satan looses; each human chooses their own path to follow; God's way or not God's way.

God is omnipotent and omnipresent and omniscient, but in His omnipotence, He chooses to let people choose their own path.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
brendar buhl said:
Oooh, sorry again, I really didn't mean to offend anyone. As I stated earlier the "trait" is one that I see in myself as a Christian. I also see it in many of my Christian friends and it is a trait that I have been trying to shake off because I don't like the reaction it provokes. The trait (specifically) is that of not being able to say, "I don't know". It is a trait that causes me to vigorously debate ideas that I really don't understand that well. You see, I don't believe in a God that wants or needs to be defended. I believe in a God that wants to be imitated. And please understand that I know I don't imitate him well, but it is my focus and aim to do so. God has not given me a great mind that can fathom his character but he has given each of us the ability to love with out boundary. This is something that I know, so I would rather focus on that than something I don't know. You refered to me earlier as "an apparent Christian", I take that as a compliment in hopes that my faith is apparent through what I do inspite of how little I know.
It is not a Christian's job, duty, in any way to debate. The Great commission given by Jesus to all Christians was not go into all the world and debate my existence. The Great Commission only tells us to make disciples. Disciples are not made through debate. No one was ever debated into believing to my knowledge.
Matthew 28:18-20

18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
That is the reason I try not to engage in argument or debate about God anymore. It is pointless. wxtonardo will never believe in God through human endeavor. It is a Christians duty to present the plan of salvation and leave the results up to the Holy Spirit. wxtornado, if a human, will use his/her own free will to choose their path. The reason I say if human is not to be flippant or insulting, but the Bible teaches that we encounter demons. They look and act human. They try to influence our actions. Right now, wxtornado's path is the path away from God. Who knows what it might be an instant from now. The Holy Spirit works in ways we do not understand.
 

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
2ndAmendment said:
Anyone can turn right or left at any time.

Sorry, I can't turn right if the God you assert already saw me turn left - that's the way it goes. Remember, he already knows what I'm gonna do - he's omniscient like that. And if he already saw me turn left, I certainly can't turn right and make him wrong!
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Nucklesack said:
It being Logic does not negate it being a legitimate question.

Thats the fallacy of a Gods omnipotence. If he/she/it was omnipotent (almighty and having absolute power) then the Logic question would not fail. Its not a comfortable question because it calls a God's omnipotence into question.

Either God is omnipotent (almight having absolute power) or he doesnt.

Your example about the Bible doesnt show anything (although it then begs how to address the inconsistencies in the Bible?). The Bible is actually holding up its end of the bargain if it states God doesnt lie, because what he says is Truth... it is actually making its point.
Logic fails because it is human logic. God is spirit. God does not operate by our rules; He operates by His will. God never fails. Only the logic tried to be imposed by man on God who cannot have anything imposed on Him fails.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
wxtornado said:
Sorry, I can't turn right if the God you assert already saw me turn left - that's the way it goes. Remember, he already knows what I'm gonna do - he's omniscient like that. And if he already saw me turn left, I certainly can't turn right and make him wrong!
Nowhere in the Bible does it say wxtornado turned one way or another. I read the Bible numerous times and I have never seen the name wxtornado anywhere. I don't remember the Bible saying anything about individuals and their destiny. It only states actions and resulting consequences when individuals are written of. So you can turn right or left. No big deal. Choosing the path to salvation or not is the choice. You will have made your choice the day you die. Until then, you have the ability to choose.
 

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
2ndAmendment said:
Choosing the path to salvation or not is the choice. You will have made your choice the day you die. Until then, you have the ability to choose.

If the God you assert is omniscient, he already knows whether or not I will choose the path to salvation, so there is no way I can choose other than what he has already seen. If your God is indeed omniscient,

my
choice
is
already
known.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Nucklesack said:
And here is an example of where the Bible clearly states that mans desitination is pretermined (thats those pesky inconsitencies i was mentioning)
The following are examples (from the Bible) that everyone is predestined by God to be either saved or damned; they can do nothing to affect their final destiny.











And to even things out:



God will cause Men to believe lies even knowing that by doing so, he is Damning them to hell.
Another good reason I no longer believe in god. Instead of wasting time trying to reconcile things like this, I can devote my time to being a good Human in society. Much better cause in my opinion.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Nucklesack said:
And here is an example of where the Bible clearly states that mans desitination is pretermined (thats those pesky inconsitencies i was mentioning)
The following are examples (from the Bible) that everyone is predestined by God to be either saved or damned; they can do nothing to affect their final destiny.











And to even things out:



God will cause Men to believe lies even knowing that by doing so, he is Damning them to hell.
Context is everything. You can cherry pick scripture all the time just like statisticians can cherry pick their sample and prove anything.

For example your out of context quote from Second Thessalonians:
2Thessalonians 2:1-13

1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Not quite what you painted. In context, the scripture clearly shoes that at the end time as Christ returns to put this system of things to waste, those that took pleasure in wickedness will be deluded so that they will continue in their false belief.

Now is the time for repentance. Then it will be too late.
 
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2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Bustem' Down said:
Another good reason I no longer believe in god. Instead of wasting time trying to reconcile things like this, I can devote my time to being a good Human in society. Much better cause in my opinion.
Reading in context reconciles it every time. Not hard. Just do it. Most seminaries, as I understand them, really don't teach the Bible. They teach the business of church. According to the information I have read on seminaries of the main stream denominations, the graduates have not read the entire Bible by the time they graduate. That's like trying to teach higher math and not ever studying calculus.
 
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